How important is body structure?

[Ultimatewingchun]

...in the overall scheme of things. From a TOTAL all out fight point of view. No rules, no regs, no boxing gloves, shoes/sneakers stay on, no mats. Anything goes. Real life.

How much will body structure contribute to the final outcome of the fight? (Both are skilled fighters and about the same size and strength).

There's much to be considered here: WILL, SKILL, CONDITIONING, etc.

But how important is body structure, per se?

And if structure is very important to you - then tell us what structure(s) do you personally advocate and why? So this leaves room for the crosstrained fighter to pipe in as well - not just the wing chun-only guys.

And furthermore, what else do you advocate as being very important to the outcome - be it something having to do with body structure or otherwise?

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...this is not just an infomercial for my own personal point of view.

Although I'm sure I'll give one before the thread is over.

[iamleaving]

My sifu indicated that a good structure meant good balance, I would say its very important overall.

[Liddel]

Vic, i dont have much time to respond now, but in short....

How much will body structure contribute to the final outcome of the fight?

With equal partners in all other areas, timing, speed and strength(muscle)....
IMO very important. Structure IMO is the most important thing with regard to issuing and recieving force, but also it proves paramount to making the best of a bad situation. With all other things equal, theoretically it would be the deciding factor to the outcome of a fight IME.

Good structure allows you to capitalise on your physical potential and also more importantly IME, allows you to be able to recover in less favourable situations.

But how important is body structure, per se?

Depends on your life view. Structure helps you stand upright.
In a fighting sence its paramount, no structure, no style.... your rolling dice.

what else do you advocate as being very important to the outcome - be it something having to do with body structure or otherwise?

Well i could bang out a hendrik length post with this question LOL

Something thats mentioned little in these discussions, WILL POWER as you mentioned, IME is the biggest deciding factor to any fight. Will Power can make you more powerfull it can delay the effects of injury....its a freaky aspect of fighting i think of often and not one you can teach or pass on easily or at all...... more later

DREW

[kj]

But how important is body structure, per se?

Pretty important.

And furthermore, what else do you advocate as being very important to the outcome - be it something having to do with body structure or otherwise?

Fearlessness. The person with the greatest advantage is the one who acts with little or no fear including that of shame, dismemberment or death.

Although I'm sure I'll give one before the thread is over.

Regards,
- kj

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree completely about WILL POWER, Drew. It's the single biggest component to the outcome of any fight, imo. And fearlessness is a major component of will power, Kathy Jo. Yeah.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've already given my views on body structure on a different current thread from the physical/technical point of view. (The thread about Alan Orr's body structure, post # 130 on page 9 of the thread).

But here's a more esoteric way of putting it - from a book I have on Zen. I'll do it in two parts. Here's the first:

"Two monks were arguing over a philosophical question as their teacher passed by. They stopped him and asked him to settle their disagreement. The first monk explained his understanding, to which their teacher replied, "You're right." The second monk protested,and made his argument, which was the complete opposite of what the first monk said. The teacher then answered the second monk, saying, "You're right." A third monk who had been listening asked in frustration, "But Master, you tell both of these monks that they are right, when their explanations are contradictory and couldn't possibly both be correct."
The teacher replied, "You're right."

ZEN STORY

....................................

And the second, from the same book:

"The middle path is a difficult path to follow, because it is utterly dynamic. It often requires us to hold two contradictory ideas in our minds at the same time. It means balancing on the razor's edge, and avoiding the temptation of easy answers."

........................

Now apply that to an excerpt from part of the technical answer I gave on the other thread:

"In other words - it (the stance and body structure I use) slightly favors speed of forward movement and forward pressure into his space - with lots of locked hips and a knees-in lower body alignment - and upper body chest pressuring forward when in full blown wing chun centerline facing his COM mode as well - but the emphasis is not on always preserving the wing chun structure to the last (ie.- before a sprawl becomes necessary)...because I believe that the clinch area is where the fight is truly set up to be won or lost -and so I want my options in this range to be as open as possible.

......................


How important is body structure in the overall scheme of things? VERY IMPORTANT.

As long as it's utterly dynamic to changing situations.

EXPECT NOTHING. BE READY FOR ANYTHING. (Catch as catch can)

[No_Know]

A tuck at the chest involving the shoulders. This forms a loch from the pectoralis to the upper-most arms. This creates a bungie-cord effect but in a weave. It stableizes arm movement. It reduces wrenching possibilities.

Also wraps around the solar plexus region for a natural armor, as I think of it.

I like structure in establishing natural body armor--compressed/overlayed muscles or the such.

No_Know

[Matrix]

A tuck at the chest involving the shoulders. This forms a loch from the pectoralis to the upper-most arms. This creates a bungie-cord effect but in a weave. It stableizes arm movement. It reduces wrenching possibilities.

Also wraps around the solar plexus region for a natural armor, as I think of it.

I like structure in establishing natural body armor--compressed/overlayed muscles or the such.

No_Know,

The main problem I have with this, is that it is strictly upper-body focused and static positions. Body Structure, IMO, is more about body-unity and coordinated movement.

[WingTsun20]

Body structure is very important!
Especially for the transfer of energy from the ground through the joints!

[t_niehoff]

Body structure is very important!
Especially for the transfer of energy from the ground through the joints!

"Energy" -- unless you are talking about natural gas or oil -- doesn't come "from the ground" and doesn't move "through the joints."

[k gledhill]

basic physics = equal & opposite reactions.
I drive my leg into the ground [ presumably its solid] with [for arguments sake] 900lbs
of force....I then structure my body with knees in to direct the force into my hips from the heels ...I then place my hips forward of my heels so the force is directed up and forward from the ground....I keep my torso vertical and shoulders square so I can deliver the same force out of each arm while attacking...Simply angling and facing a given line of attack relative to an incoming attack....I maintain my elbows inside a certain area to harness the said 900lbs of force as I attack and achieve a simple yet genious ability to both defend and attack witth nothing more than structured placement of my arms relative to a centerline ......I then train to maintain low arm/elbow positions so I dont lose the force to a 'lever' at the shoulders...I then attempt to train this force to be available in every action I take , simply through timing and structure of an assault . I incorporate arm exercises to develop the correct angles and avoid levers in motion with a live partner[ dead partner bad] we deliver alternating lines of force along gates defined by our forearms inside outside..hi..lo..
we move according to the force eminated from the gound in a manner that we avoid the 900lbs of directed force and counter it within the confines of space we have decided is needed to deliver OUR 900lbs of force in the instant we are attacked ....thereby avoiding yet being able to STOP the 900lbs of force from continuing to persue us....
maintaining stucture throughout this simple scenario is quite hard and takes some coaching to maintain lines of force during a violent engagemnet that will attempt to throw us off balance with certain contact points along our arms. When we touch a force we have to be structured not ony to deliver it back but to simultaneously redirect the incoming force laterally off our attacking counterlines...ergo toes in to turn the hip joint into a supporting position for delivering and supporting our bong,pak, jut's jum tans etc...So to deliver sharp ging dispalcing force of the 900lb line coming at us we need short sharp shocking bong's , paks etc.. simply to clear a thin channel [ or wide river depending on the otherguys structure ] as the rear hand [vu] delivers the good news
I would say structure is 'everything' unless you doing the 'blob' style aka octopus .sounds like a wwf wrestler
We shuffle this 900lbs by sliding heels ->heels-> in 3 inch increments because as soon as one heel /toes the force is gone , to big a step and the force becomes a sequence of short burst rather than a flatline of 900lbs force delivered through whatever arm I need for as long as I need it through endurance training to maintain my elbows in [slt]

SLT is the structure Chum Kil is the development of force and making it function you need to combine the 2 ideas into a fighting bubble, a moving platform of structure. Many hit with the force of the arms alone at incorrect distances to harness the force of the lower body...this is simply a overextended lever [arm] completely devoid of unity with the lower body, reaching hits [tag] . the system needs close proximity to simply deliver the heavy shot capable of stopping an attack with one 900lb punch ..good boxing coaches can train elbow in for this reasonto harness the body .

Structure is a systematic process we train in doing vt...systematic addition of new thinking ...systematic process of development...of a simple idea...maintained throughout the whole SYSTEM...thats why we arent a style of tan arm or look a t my bong...its all about hitting the guy asap with that 900lb shot and not wasting ones energy flailing away in wasted motion...I stay with what comes because I cant delver 900lbs of force going backwards but I can if I time it so its delvered at a 15 degree angle relative to a...this is were I leave you for more coffee

Seung ma>Xtoi ma .
inch punching is simply a test of ground 2 fist unity and structure...
its not how fast the punches are but what each individual punch has in it, I learned in a club hallway or 2 that simply hitting aguy really fast only makes them angry learn before you use it or you will learn as your using it

[sanjuro_ronin]

Structure, structure...
If we look at it from the point of view of "building" it is crucial.

How can we do anything if we have no "foundation" for it ?

BUT, the key is for it to be dynamic and not static.

A beginner must learn everything from a static starting point and must "disregard" it as soon as he is able so that everything he does is dynamic, but the base must be there.

[t_niehoff]

Yeah, blah, blah, blah, but "the force" or "the energy" does not come from, and is certainly not "emanated" from, the ground, nor does it "flow" through our bodies. That is not an accurate description of what is going on (I guess in their view when I do a military press that "the energy emanates from the ground" and "flows through my body" to cause the weight to lift. ). And in my view people who speak in these terms must not have a clue as to what is really going on -- or they wouldn't speak in those terms.

Body structure/mechanics, at least as I use the term, is not "quite hard" or difficult to learn or develop; it's actually, IME, a fairly simple skill to teach (if the teacher can do it well) and develop (once you learn it).

[sihing]

Structure, structure...
If we look at it from the point of view of "building" it is crucial.

How can we do anything if we have no "foundation" for it ?

BUT, the key is for it to be dynamic and not static.

A beginner must learn everything from a static starting point and must "disregard" it as soon as he is able so that everything he does is dynamic, but the base must be there.

Exactly. I don't know about disregarding it, depends if you want to pass it along to others, but the idea is not to get stuck in that phase of the training.

Regarding structure, it also changes depending on the circumstances or "environment" we are in. A building has to have a soild earth foundation below the built foundation to be stable. This is not guaranteed when you are fighting, as you can be stable on a nice clean level concrete floor, but when you are put on the grass just after a rain storm or a ice covered parking lot, that can change everything. Luckily the environment will also effect your opponent, so it's even regarding that variable. The thing I like about the WC concept of it, is that it is efficient and does not require alot of larger movements to work. There's no dancin around when using the ideas properly.

James

[t_niehoff]

Structure, structure...
If we look at it from the point of view of "building" it is crucial.

How can we do anything if we have no "foundation" for it ?

BUT, the key is for it to be dynamic and not static.

A beginner must learn everything from a static starting point and must "disregard" it as soon as he is able so that everything he does is dynamic, but the base must be there.

There is in my view no such thing as body structure since, as you correctly point out, everything has to be dynamic. What we are really talking about here is how to use your body, which includes the limbs, to do certain things optimally. The unfortunate thing is - and once again you are correct - that the TMAs, WCK included, teach these things in a fixed/static manner (even the term "body structure" embodies this view). But the reality is they are not fixed or static: they are living, moving, dynamic processes/actions. In other words, skills. And this is why, in my view, the traditional training is flawed -- you are trying to teach something inherently dynamic and adaptable, a skill, using fixed/static structures -- and that way of teaching doesn't typically produce good results (very few people ever make the shift; the training locks them into that fixed/static mindset). For example, people talk about the "structure" of a tan sao. There is no structure to a tan sao, just as there is no "structure" to throwing a ball.