Hung Fa Yi

[Ultimatewingchun]

"we see videos as an illusion because the learning process of HFY is a dynamic, living approach - when you try to capture something alive, you end up with something dead, instead."


Ha! Ha! Ha!

(You've gotta love this)

[t_niehoff]

T,

To answer quite simply, as I said before - wouldn't a hands-on face-to-face experience be worth much more?

Of course, but that's besides the point. Wouldn't hands-on-face-to-face experience be better than reading a book or article or putting on demos too? Does that stop people in HFY from doing those things? Does it stop people from writing on forums?

To answer less simply:
Yes, a video could do those things - it realy depends on the intent. But then, that's all just surface level infromation without the hands-on real-world experience. IMO, the books/articles handle this well. And I could see how you might feel a video is much more informative that a book if you are looking at moving action vs. still photographs. But remember, along with the pictures comes written words in those articles that expains a LOT. So, it depends on the perspective to say what's more informative - video or written words w/pictures.

Along with video can be spoken words (even in voice-over) that can explain things too. Books can't provide the same level of information - especially about a physical activity - that video can. For example, a book can have photos of the form but that's not the same experience (level of info) as seeing it performed.

And sure, I agree, an article couldn't capture sparring. But really, why does HFY have to provide these things (videos of instruction and/or sparring) if they are not thier preferred methods of training? Again, I ask, wouldn't hands-on instruction, or even sparring, be a better demonstration if it was in person?

HFY does not "have to" provide anything. If people don't want to do a video that's fine by me. What I find a bit confusing is the rationale that has been given for not providing one -- which I find inconsistent (we can presnt info in one medium and that's OK, but can't present the same info in another medium as that is an "illusion"), ill-conceived, and illogical.

Besides, as has already been pointed out here, hasn't this whole video thing been beaten to death already? This whole thread started because of the interest the book built up - what's wrong with that? My advice to the original poster was to check it out for themselves. IMO, a book (or video) can only provide so much - nothing compares to hands-on real-world experience.

Jonathan

Sure it's been discussed before, and I didn't bring it up -- Jeremy did with his post about the "illusion" of video.

[anerlich]

Marketing = METHOD Marketing

METHOD Marketing = Marketing

Anerlich, personally I don't give a rat's @ss about your respect for me or HFY members. I doubt anyone in the HFY family was asking for your respect.

I'm glad our mutual expectations match, and you not be disappointed.

[r4cy]

What about Benny Meng videos? are they Hung Fa Yi or not? I believe he practice this style right?

[JPinAZ]

What about Benny Meng videos? are they Hung Fa Yi or not? I believe he practice this style right?

While I am not a representitive for the VTM museum (nor speaking for Master Meng), as far as I know, the videos he sells are not HFY.

Here is what it says on the VTM pages:
http://shop.vtmuseum.org/index.php?m...&products_id=3

http://shop.vtmuseum.org/index.php?m...roducts_id=113

So, in my understanding, while Master Meng does indeed practice HFY, the VT Museum is a seperate entity. Jeremy (passing_through) can probably clarify things better than myself.

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

Of course, but that's besides the point. Wouldn't hands-on-face-to-face experience be better than reading a book or article or putting on demos too? Does that stop people in HFY from doing those things? Does it stop people from writing on forums?

Sure, hands-on experience is best IMO. Nope, doesn't stop them at all. We are all free to do or not-do things as we wish/see fit. At this moment, the HFY family choses not to create videos, as ill-logical as you may feel it is. Why should the HFY family care what YOU feel is best for them??
Really, I don't see the point in going through all this again..

Along with video can be spoken words (even in voice-over) that can explain things too. Books can't provide the same level of information - especially about a physical activity - that video can. For example, a book can have photos of the form but that's not the same experience (level of info) as seeing it performed.

So what are you saying? That the HFY family should present things the way you see fit vs. how they see fit? If not, what is your point? Is it your intention to talk them into it? If not, then lets just move on.

HFY does not "have to" provide anything. If people don't want to do a video that's fine by me.

Good, then we can move on.

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

Sure, hands-on experience is best IMO. Nope, doesn't stop them at all. We are all free to do or not-do things as we wish/see fit. At this moment, the HFY family choses not to create videos, as ill-logical as you may feel it is. Why should the HFY family care what YOU feel is best for them??
Really, I don't see the point in going through all this again..

I'm not saying it is illogical for HFY to not produce videos -- I'm saying the reasons given for not doing so are illogical, inconsistent, and ill-conceived. I don't know what the HFY family feels or doesn't feel. But if its members go on to forums and give silly reasons, it reflects poorly on HFY. They may want to consider that.

So what are you saying? That the HFY family should present things the way you see fit vs. how they see fit? If not, what is your point? Is it your intention to talk them into it? If not, then lets just move on.

It's not just a matter of perspective (how I see vs. how they see), but whether the reasons given in support of that perspective makes sense. To maintain that HFY won't produce videos because they are "illusions" all the while writing books, articles and going around doing demos, etc. is at the very least hypocritical (video = illusion, book = reality?) and undermines their very position.

If you guys in HFY don't question these things, that is up to you, but you may want to consider that others will.

Good, then we can move on.

Jonathan

And we could have avoided the whole thing if Jeremy hadn't tried to "help" matters.

[passing_through]

t_neihoff,

Sure it's been discussed before, and I didn't bring it up -- Jeremy did with his post about the "illusion" of video.

Ah… the Law of Unintended Consequences… or, no good deed goes unpunished…

Then why write books or articles?

Because.

Wouldn't they also be "an illusion" from your (HFY) perspective?

No. Yes. See below.

If I watched a seminar and didn't participate (let's say I was injured), would that be "an illusion" too?

On one level of thinking, everything is an illusion… so yes and no.

If not, how is that different than watching a video?

If you don’t know the difference between watching a video and attending a seminar while injured, I fail to see how anything I attempt to communicate can help.

What I find a bit confusing is the rationale that has been given for not providing one -- which I find inconsistent (we can presnt info in one medium and that's OK, but can't present the same info in another medium as that is an "illusion"), ill-conceived, and illogical.

It all depends on how you look at things and how much you know about what‘s going on - and I don‘t expect you to understand or appreciate something you haven‘t directly experienced for yourself.

A book or an article represents one moment in time - kinda like a picture - it’s frozen so you tend not to fall into the trap of thinking that what you’re seeing is what's really going on because you realize you're looking at something that's fixed. In a seminar, assuming you’re present, your awareness is in the moment - learning, living, and experiencing reality as it happens… and if you miss something, you miss something - after all, that‘s reality. Because you’re actually present, what you see/hear/feel/experience/think is what you get. Reality doesn’t have “do-overs.” So when you have something on videotape, you have something that’s in a limbo between something static (or dead/frozen/fixed) and something free and alive. It’s like stepping into a river twice and trying to step in the exact same spot - you can’t do it because the water that you originally stepped through has flowed downstream when you try to do it again. But if you look at a picture of a river, you can look at the exact same spot because nothing changes in the picture. So the HFY family doesn’t make videotapes.

anerlich,

SBG: You must train "alive"; Functional JKD 1,2,3 videos explain and demonstrate the concept of aliveness.

HFY: Videos are not "alive" but dead.

Explain rthis paradox, using words of as many syllables as you like.

It’s not a paradox - it’s two different points of view from two different cultures… which is more delicious - sushi or shumai? I love ‘em both.

R4cy,

What about Benny Meng videos? are they Hung Fa Yi or not? I believe he practice this style right?

If you mean the Shaolin Wing Chun DVDs, no they’re not HFY. Those videos are coming from the VTM and represent some of the conclusions from the VTM based on research into Wing Chun’s history and traditions in the Southern Shaolin Temples. I believe there’s some mention on HFY on those tapes.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[drleungjohn]

Andy-check your PM please-thanks

[t_niehoff]

What I find a bit confusing is the rationale that has been given for not providing one -- which I find inconsistent (we can presnt info in one medium and that's OK, but can't present the same info in another medium as that is an "illusion"), ill-conceived, and illogical.

It all depends on how you look at things and how much you know about what‘s going on - and I don‘t expect you to understand or appreciate something you haven‘t directly experienced for yourself.

We can all agree that experiencing things firsthand, via participation, is an excellent means of learning something. But there are also many times when not participating and just watching can be very helpful in learning. Video, or just plain observation, is a type of experience itself (there is such a thing as observational learning); people can and do learn from videos, people can come to appreciate things from videos, etc.

A book or an article represents one moment in time - kinda like a picture - it’s frozen so you tend not to fall into the trap of thinking that what you’re seeing is what's really going on because you realize you're looking at something that's fixed. In a seminar, assuming you’re present, your awareness is in the moment - learning, living, and experiencing reality as it happens… and if you miss something, you miss something - after all, that‘s reality. Because you’re actually present, what you see/hear/feel/experience/think is what you get. Reality doesn’t have “do-overs.” So when you have something on videotape, you have something that’s in a limbo between something static (or dead/frozen/fixed) and something free and alive. It’s like stepping into a river twice and trying to step in the exact same spot - you can’t do it because the water that you originally stepped through has flowed downstream when you try to do it again. But if you look at a picture of a river, you can look at the exact same spot because nothing changes in the picture. So the HFY family doesn’t make videotapes.

A video is reality -- it is a record of reality. While you can say that "reality doesn't have do-overs" (records of reality do), what is the problem with do-overs? Isn't it an advantage that if I miss something that I can replay it? Which promotes better understanding: missing something entirely (and maybe not even being aware I missed it) or replaying it so that I can catch it all?

By your reasoning it is OK to show me a picture of your punch or a series of pictures of you performing a linked set because that is "fixed", and it is OK to show me in person your punch or your performing a linked set because that is "alive", but it is an "illusion" (that aparently will just confuse me) to show me a video of your punch or your performing a linked set because that is neither "fixed" or "alive". (And I guess it's OK to look at my wedding photos because they are "fixed" but I should throw out the video -- after all, the video is trying to "step in the river twice" and that's not reality). Nonsense.

Print, video, participation each have advantages and disadvantages in terms of conveying information. There is no "best" medium. Participation is great, but often we miss things when participating "in the moment" because our focus is limited by the moment (and our attention at that time). Being able to replay that moment will permit us to change our focus and extract more info. The do-over is an advantage. But video can't provide interaction, and that's its disadvantage.

[Wayfaring]

There's nothing inherently wrong with video, magazine articles, internet articles, books, seminars, and local clubs as media for transmitting instruction and exposure to a martial art. Each has its own strength and weakness for a media for transmitting the above.

In HFY, the means chosen to do so is solely at the discretion of the founder and lineage holder, GM Garrett Gee. He decided in 1998 to take the art public as opposed to continuing its tradition of being taught underground in a secret society type of format.

I certainly don't speak for him or any of the HFY family, but since then the means GM Gee has chosen to transmit exposure to HFY in taking it public besides the standard method of training it at local clubs and schools are a web site - http://www.hungfakwoon.com, public seminars, and a book co-authored by Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen. He has not chosen to release videos to date, so the people studying HFY out of respect for his decision generally don't post up things on YouTube that are called HFY. There are also various co-authored articles that are available to view at different branch school web sites.

Some may like this. Some may not. Such is life.

[JPinAZ]

T,

"illogical, inconsistent, ill-conceived, silly, nonsense, etc". This is how you respond to answers given? Wonderfull..... These are all your opinions, and you are just one person. And, just because you say it it doesn't make it so.
Since the rational & reasons given are all these things in your view, it is obvious you will not agree with the reasons, not matter how many different perspectives, individual views, etc you are given. It seems you are once again just here to argue, regardless what information you are given.
HFY doesn't make videos, it's really just that simple. Your inability to come to terms with that, agree with it, rationalize with it, whatever is your problem.
You said you have no probelm that videos aren't made, and you agree that a direct experience is far better than a video (alive, dead or otherwise). Great, now can't you just shut up and let it rest? But, I think we all know the answer to that one - you're a lawyer, you can't stop arguing, even if all the points have been made

Do you really want to beat this dead horse into the ground another 10 pages? Or should I have looked to see if you are wearing your Troll Hat and just ignored you this time around?

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

There's nothing inherently wrong with video, magazine articles, internet articles, books, seminars, and local clubs as media for transmitting instruction and exposure to a martial art. Each has its own strength and weakness for a media for transmitting the above.

In HFY, the means chosen to do so is solely at the discretion of the founder and lineage holder, GM Garrett Gee. He decided in 1998 to take the art public as opposed to continuing its tradition of being taught underground in a secret society type of format.

I certainly don't speak for him or any of the HFY family, but since then the means GM Gee has chosen to transmit exposure to HFY in taking it public besides the standard method of training it at local clubs and schools are a web site - http://www.hungfakwoon.com, public seminars, and a book co-authored by Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen. He has not chosen to release videos to date, so the people studying HFY out of respect for his decision generally don't post up things on YouTube that are called HFY. There are also various co-authored articles that are available to view at different branch school web sites.

Some may like this. Some may not. Such is life.

I have no problem with that position as an explanation for why HFY does not have videos (Gee is our leader and he says no vids). Simple and straight-forward.

[t_niehoff]

T,

"illogical, inconsistent, ill-conceived, silly, nonsense, etc". This is how you respond to answers given? Wonderfull..... These are all your opinions, and you are just one person. And, just because you say it it doesn't make it so.

Of course it is my opinion. And, yes, that is how I respond to rationales and/or explanations that are inconsistent, illogical, and nonsensical. What am I supposed to say?

Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that videos are used both to inform and to instruct in all manner of subjects, including martial arts. And that they have proved to be very useful tools. The evidence is uncontroverted and indisputable. So to even take the position that they are not useful is silly.

Since the rational & reasons given are all these things in your view, it is obvious you will not agree with the reasons, not matter how many different perspectives, individual views, etc you are given. It seems you are once again just here to argue, regardless what information you are given.

I am not here just to argue. If something makes sense, even if I disagree with it, that's one thing. But when the reasoning behind an explanation is unsound, as it was in this case, I'm not being argumentative to point it out.

What's very revealing is that you are not in any way offering a refutation to my reasons given for why Jeremy's explanation was absurd; all you are doing is complaining that I dare to criticize these things. Sorry you don't like it when I point out nonsense.

HFY doesn't make videos, it's really just that simple. Your inability to come to terms with that, agree with it, rationalize with it, whatever is your problem.
You said you have no probelm that videos aren't made, and you agree that a direct experience is far better than a video (alive, dead or otherwise). Great, now can't you just shut up and let it rest? But, I think we all know the answer to that one - you're a lawyer, you can't stop arguing, even if all the points have been made

I don't shut up about it because people like Jeremy come on here and give silly rationales. If they want to stick their foot in it, why get angry with me pointing that out? If you want to stop it, tell Jeremy to stop saying silly things. And if you don't want me to keep talking, stop talking to me! I am only responding to you. Respond to this post, and I'll respond to you again. Want it to stop? Then stop it. The ball is now in your court. Don't hit the ball to me and then complain that I keep hitting it back!

Do you really want to beat this dead horse into the ground another 10 pages? Or should I have looked to see if you are wearing your Troll Hat and just ignored you this time around?

Jonathan

Calling me a troll (ad hominem) is a poor attempt to dodge the issue here.

[JPinAZ]

T,

I'm not mad about anything. I'm not 'attacking' you - simply, you come off as a troll at times. My opinion, you don't like it, oh well.

You were also addressing me and talking directly to me, so it's not just your issue with Jeremy.

Simply, as you said yourself, GM Gee does not want videos made. That's been said before, and more than once. If someone else wants to add to it, that's thier porragative. In any case, it does seem you have a problem with videos not being made, regardless the reasons given (not just from this thread, but some other onese as well where this was discussed)

Anyway, I think the issue has been addressed enough, don't you? Who knows, maybe one day videos will be made. If so, would you even be interested in them?

Jonathan