Claims about MMA

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu.

Reply]
See, here is the issue. Many Kung Fu styles are basically Kick Boxing, with locks and throws. Long Fist is especially like this. In fact many of the weirder looking moves in the forms ARE the throws. They are not strikes.

Now, with that said, if you watch Kuo Shou, and San Shou/San Da, you see plenty of standard, Bread & Butter Long Fist techniques being used pretty much exactly as they are seen in the forms all the time.

Also, if you are in a ring where you have gloves, a LOT of your throws, and all of your joint locks are now out of your arsenal...not to mention in may venues locks are severely limited (no small joint manipulations in UFC for example). So what are you left with? Answer, the kicking and punching...ie. Kickboxing.

As for the UFC, early on no one was working the ground, the Gracies were able to take advantage of that pretty easily. But NOW, so many people have abandoned good striking for high level Ground working skill that the advance level strikers are starting to make a comeback because the over all striking abilities are at a low point.. This is especially so because the Ground threat is so prevalent that that hole is now pretty universally closed up.

[Notintheface]

no small joint manipulations

Small joint means fingers, toes, wrist. I think all else is game in UFC. I am pretty sure that small joint based throws are less than 25 % in total, and I'm being genrous, even in systems like ying jow pai and mantis.

See, here is the issue. Many Kung Fu styles are basically Kick Boxing, with locks and throws.

If this was true then kung fu would look like judo + kick boxing. If this was true, then there wouldn't be all the diverse styles. Mantis would look like wing chun.
What is passed off as actually combat is what is taught as self defense. The sparring is just the example of how they do fight versus what they teach as "Street defense."

Now, with that said, if you watch Kuo Shou, and San Shou/San Da, you see plenty of standard, Bread & Butter Long Fist techniques being used pretty much exactly as they are seen in the forms all the time.

I'll take your word on this as I would not assume to comment on techniques present that I am not viewing properly. But if you mean that whirlly bird swings I see from time to time......no comment.

Also, if you are in a ring where you have gloves, a LOT of your throws, and all of your joint locks are now out of your arsenal...not to mention in may venues locks are severely limited

You are correct but they are not limited to the point that they are defenseless. Must kung fu systems can claim at least 10 types of throws, at least, but you rarely if ever see them used. this is barring San Da of course as even in chin-na they treat it as a separate entity.

But NOW, so many people have abandoned good striking for high level Ground working skill

In the beginning of the UFC the striking wasn't all that great as well.

the advance level strikers are starting to make a comeback because the over all striking abilities are at a low point..

I'll agree here that striking is not the best but it is getting better. but the difference is that the strikers, grappler's or whatever understand that they need to up their game. They are refusing to stay stagnate. They get kick by a good leg kick and then they are like "Dam I need to add that" Jens is now looking to up his ground game has started training with BJ Penn. A lot of Bjj guys go train at the fairtex Muay Thai camp. I am sure if there was a Shuai Jiao school with the MMA mindset we would be seeing some crazy throws in the UFC. IHell, people are already trying to copy Parizian's judo throws.

[Knifefighter]

It seems that the styles you listed above are prevalent and stick to the methods that they actually train.

Because those are the things that work.

I just see very little of TCMA that is of much skill level or not contrived to produce a certain result.

That's because the type of TCMA techniques you are expecting to see don't work.

As you say, it seems most of them end up kickboxing or something that looks more like TKD sparring than kung fu at all.

Because boxing or kickboxing is what fighting looks like at medium to high levels.

I also agree that techniques that are ineffective, unrealistic, or nigh impossible to perform on a resisting, skilled opponent should be thrown out or put aside for more effective training.

What you would be left with is pretty much what you already see in MMA competitions.

[Knifefighter]

do not do kickboxing then call it kung fu.

Reply]
See, here is the issue. Many Kung Fu styles are basically Kick Boxing, with locks and throws. Long Fist is especially like this. In fact many of the weirder looking moves in the forms ARE the throws. They are not strikes.

Pulling moves out of forms = TCMA
Doing solo work based on forms = TCMA

Doing moves on partners = MMA
Doing solo work based on drills with partners, competitions and sparring = MMA

This differentiation is one of the things that makes MMA so dominant.

Also, if you are in a ring where you have gloves, a LOT of your throws, and all of your joint locks are now out of your arsenal...

MMA gloves allow for all throws and all joint locks.

not to mention in may venues locks are severely limited (no small joint manipulations in UFC for example).

LOL @ small joint manipulations.

Who is going to be able to break someone's wrist, finger or toe... the grappler/MMA fighter who constantly practices against resisting opponents in a live manner developing the ability to control his opponent and isolate his limbs or the TCMA person who only goes through the motions of pretending to do small joint breaks?

And who is going to be more proficient at escaping these small joint manipulations, the grappler/MMA fighter who constantly practices escaping from holds in a live manner or the TCMA person who, if he practices escaping, does it with a compliant partner?

[n00854180t]

Well yes, I mean, obviously it can be done (strikes defending against ground), but it seems to me it's the exception rather than the rule. And in those cases that are given as examples, those fighters are *also* quite decent at ground work. I also think that strikers taking out primarily grapplers tends to be less common, since any grappler worth his salt also has at least a *basic* stand up game. And yeah, MMA fighters are well rounded, but that's not what I meant. I meant I want to see a well rounded primarily TCMA fighter in some of these videos. It just doesn't seem to be there.

[Knifefighter]

I meant I want to see a well rounded primarily TCMA fighter in some of these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rnEa...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_ah8...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6G8g...elated&search=

[SoCo KungFu]

Well yes, I mean, obviously it can be done (strikes defending against ground), but it seems to me it's the exception rather than the rule. And in those cases that are given as examples, those fighters are *also* quite decent at ground work. I also think that strikers taking out primarily grapplers tends to be less common, since any grappler worth his salt also has at least a *basic* stand up game. And yeah, MMA fighters are well rounded, but that's not what I meant. I meant I want to see a well rounded primarily TCMA fighter in some of these videos. It just doesn't seem to be there.

Thats not MMA's problem though. That's an issue with the TCMA and this is what KF is trying to say. IF TCMA guys start training in a realistic manner, then you might see some in the videos. Until that happens though, can't no one complain about it.

This brings up a problem that hasn't really been stated though. There are some TCMA that are trying to get to that state. Some are trying to train the ground. Some are still trying to train the stuff they learned in kung fu class in a realistic manner cuz their teacher couldn't hack it. That is a problem. And a reason a lot of kung fu guys that want to get better at fighting, let go of the TCMA stuff for the things their coaches prefer. Because if you don't have any TCMA sifu teaching their students to fight in a realistic manner, its **** hard for those students to get into a MMA scene to actually work their stuff and get better.

This is why its going to be **** hard for kung fu to break out of this crap cycle its currently in. But we got no one to blame but ourselves. Bottom line is TCMA has to earn respect for TCMA, not just complain that its not fair this and that.

[Notintheface]

but it seems to me it's the exception rather than the rule

exception would mean that only 1 out of ever ten people who all train the same, effectively, will be able to do it because the techniques and strategy is hit or miss. The striking that gets dominated like in those style versus style vidoe because they do not have the strategy, technique or know how to defend in those situations. The same thing would occur if you put in a average kung fu person with an average Muay Thai fighter. Or, if you have kung fi fighter in a throwing match against a judokan but the kfer never practiced his throws on a resistant person.

I meant I want to see a well rounded primarily TCMA fighter in some of these videos. It just doesn't seem to be there.

Doubt this is ever gonna happen and look like what they claim it to be!

Unless it is San da or Shuai Jiao player IMO.

[n00854180t]

Knifefighter, excellent! I haven't finished watching the other two rounds, but that's what I like to see.

I think really it just comes down to the fact that TCMA people might need to incorporate more practical training methods to hone their applications, instead of focusing so much on things that aren't relevent.

Still though that brings the question what things are still needed for the street that can't be trained against an opponent easily due to safety. Do you guys feel that TCMA techniques in this area are effective? I'm curious.

Anyway, thanks for the links. I suppose at the heart of it I agree with your points.

[Notintheface]

Still though that brings the question what things are still needed for the street that can't be trained against an opponent easily due to safety.

dude, honestly there is no technique that can not be simulated in full force. If you are talking about nut slapping, eye gouging, wrist breaking, knee kicking, throat striking, neck snapping..... most of that stuff is nice and all but a majority of it is BS. I mean hell, even Escrima is a sweet art but some of it blade strips and stuff is complete BS.Toss that stuff out and work with what is real and applicable. Get rid of the fairy tales.

[Knifefighter]

Still though that brings the question what things are still needed for the street that can't be trained against an opponent easily due to safety.

Preemtive sucker punches are one of the most effective "street" techniques available, but are hard to do with a partner in a live, realistic manner.

[n00854180t]

Thats not MMA's problem though. That's an issue with the TCMA and this is what KF is trying to say. IF TCMA guys start training in a realistic manner, then you might see some in the videos. Until that happens though, can't no one complain about it.

This brings up a problem that hasn't really been stated though. There are some TCMA that are trying to get to that state. Some are trying to train the ground. Some are still trying to train the stuff they learned in kung fu class in a realistic manner cuz their teacher couldn't hack it. That is a problem. And a reason a lot of kung fu guys that want to get better at fighting, let go of the TCMA stuff for the things their coaches prefer. Because if you don't have any TCMA sifu teaching their students to fight in a realistic manner, its **** hard for those students to get into a MMA scene to actually work their stuff and get better.

This is why its going to be **** hard for kung fu to break out of this crap cycle its currently in. But we got no one to blame but ourselves. Bottom line is TCMA has to earn respect for TCMA, not just complain that its not fair this and that.

Remember, I'm not really on a "side" here. I'm not representing Fu Pow or anyting like that. Nor am I representing the "MMA" side either. Obviously there are merits to both disciplines. Also apparent is that kung fu has some problems as we've all noted here in terms of training. I just want to understand what's going on and *why* there is this lack. Basically it's what I expected though. In any case, I've enjoyed all of your posts quite thoroughly, so thank you for taking the time to respond and consider my admittedly ignorant positions on the matter.

-R

[n00854180t]

dude, honestly there is no technique that can not be simulated in full force. If you are talking about nut slapping, eye gouging, wrist breaking, knee kicking, throat striking, neck snapping..... most of that stuff is nice and all but a majority of it is BS. I mean hell, even Escrima is a sweet art but some of it blade strips and stuff is complete BS.Toss that stuff out and work with what is real and applicable. Get rid of the fairy tales.

That's why I asked Although really I wasn't thinking of any of that stuff(which is pretty obviously bull****, even to an outsider such as myself). More just breaking moves and such. *shrugs*

[Knifefighter]

Effective shoulder strikes used in MMA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfmf0GaftTc&eurl













.

[SoCo KungFu]

Still though that brings the question what things are still needed for the street that can't be trained against an opponent easily due to safety. Do you guys feel that TCMA techniques in this area are effective? I'm curious.

No. If you can't train a technique (the reason doesn't matter) realistically and repeatedly then its just not going to be effective period. Style doesn't matter.

And yes Knifefighter's web fu is definitely scoring a knock out tonight.