Claims about MMA

[Notintheface]

I can do it with my *****... Gene taught me how!!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

beating up random idiots who show up at your school to cause trouble may be at times necessary (and certainly fun) but it doesn't prove very much. If you don't know any BJJ for example, I can sweep you, get a top postion and land a submission so quick I'll look like Rickson Gracie. I am NOT Rickson Gracie

[Royal Dragon]

Ok I understand where you are coming from now and no I am not that old. I also do not assume to comment on fighters or technique I have not seen. I do not hold them up as examples because like any tall tale things get embellished. If you are speaking about fighters so removed from our generations there is no proof of their skill beyond tales.

Reply]
Well, you can talk to people who have seen documentation, and also go by comparing the oral histories.When you have compared a good amount of oral history, especially when they brag about past glory, you eventually begin to see that the old training was MUCH more fight oriented, and what is spouted about the modern training now is autotomic responses that are being repeted without examination, or common sense.

If you look at my style for instance, it was founded by an imperial conquerer...NO WAY he did that by training his troops to do forms all day. His accomplishments are recorded in the history books. Logic states that in order for his troops to face reality and find the succsess they did, then the actual training methods had to be in line with the oral history.

That oral history states the training was heavy on basics, conditioning and techniques & strategy...NOT forms. Forms were for the Trainers to organise thier curriculems, and actually came later. The style was formless originally, so form work could not have even been part of the training. The only thing left is tons of two man work and drills.

[Royal Dragon]

The funny thing, is many of the old stories are being passed down by the form collecters....and it's hasn't sunk in that what they do, does not jive with what thier own oral history records was done back when the legands were being made.

So basically, if you listen to what they *Say* in the oral history, instead of what they do now, and follow THAT example, you have a good system...just don't DO what they do now.

[Knifefighter]

If you look at my style for instance, it was founded by an imperial conquerer...NO WAY he did that by training his troops to do forms all day. His accomplishments are recorded in the history books. Logic states that in order for his troops to face reality and find the succsess they did, then the actual training methods had to be in line with the oral history.

LOL @ thinking your empty-handed fighting has anything to do with what an imperial army trained for. This was an organized army that fought with weapons using group tactics and strategies... had nothing to do with what you do.

[Royal Dragon]

Dude, it's in the history books. Look up the Emperor Chao/Zhao Kuang Yin (Sung Tai Tzu) on google, or search some of the Chinese history forums.

As for lots of weapons, yes that is actually the majority of the system. The hand to hand is only about a hundred or so techniques. Everything else is all weapons stuff.

Before Zhao Kuang Yin was Emperor, he was the personal body guard of the previous Emperor, so I am sure there was more hand to hand from that in the system as well.

[MysticNinjaJay]

...

Evidence that dim mak is BS...

They tried it on an MMA group down the street....nothing.

The link doesn't work. I assume you're talking about this video.

'The Human Stun Gun' Investigation

What's interesting is that the EMTs do acknowledge abnormal fluctuations in heart rate during the Dim Mak KO demonstrations. But his inability to KO the reporter or Jiujitsu students does make Grandmaster Cameron look really bad. The explanation for their resistance being that they are "natural atheletes" is quite ironic.

What does that make his own students who succumb to the technique with ease?

How can such a technique be applied in real world self-defense if it only works 40% of the time, only seems successful on students and athleticism negates the technique? Sounds like all the athletic assailants have nothing to worry about.

Cameron's Grandmaster, George Dillman, makes similar excuses for Dim Mak's failure to work on a skeptic researcher in a National Geographic special.

National Geographic: George Dillman and Dim Mak

Cameron participated in an experiment with a paranormal investigations organization to test the legitimacy of his Dim Mak skill. Here's an excerpt from their conclusions.

Based upon our experiences, the "touchless knockdown" has no direct, practical applications for self-defense purposes at the time of an actual attack. In order for the "touchless" to work, it seems to require some level of cooperation on the part of the individual(s) receiving the knockdown, as shown by Cameron's students, our researchers, and various laypersons who have experienced the technique and were able to resist succumbing. We have the same opinion of similar techniques when Cameron's hands are placed lightly on a subject (without applying pressure) in order to transfer energy for a knockout. The nature of the cooperation on the part of the receiving subject is currently unclear, but may have to do with the expectations of Cameron and observers that influences the receiving subject to comply and submit.

Cameron has supreme skill, knowledge, and experience in effectively applying the psychological influence and techniques of "hands-on" martial arts. His outstanding ability to subdue an attacker using physical contact is clear and obvious. The relationship between his energy work and hands-on martial arts may be very complex and was beyond the scope of these experiments and the equipment used. Our goal here was to focus on the prospective non-contact "energy projections."

The inconsistency we experienced in documenting the energy projections of Cameron and his students does not disprove the possibility that such energy projections occur. Said inconsistencies could be the product of our equipment's inefficiency to operate under the given atmospheric conditions or the fickle nature of sensitive, human physiology and the endurance of the body to repeat the required techniques. After our experiments, Cameron reported blood in his urine. This is one indication of how physically exhaustive it was for him to undergo so much testing in such a relatively short period of time.

Source: The Chinese Death Touch: A L.E.M.U.R. Investigation Report

"It's a little bit of mind control and a little but of Qi work"

Obviously the pratical purpose of any self-defense technique is to be used effectively in a real life combat setting, so I'd have to say that even if Qigong techniques do work to harness some type of power, the controlled experiments and documentaries do not reveal Dim Mak to be a useful martial arts skill.

[AmanuJRY]

Yes, that's it. I also fixed the link.

Derren Brown, a british hypnotist, went to a MA school and demonstrated an 'invisible punch' on their students, it was waaaay more amazing than any dim mak example and he said it was hypnosis, nothing but a trick of the mind.

As for the EMT reports, a psycho somatic reaction.

[MasterKiller]

I watched Dan Henderson vs Silva in Pride FC last night and Henderson used several shoulder strikes to Silva's head from the mount in Round 2.

[tattooedmonk]

is that Kung Fu/ CMA is a mixed martial art. What I mean is that many of the styles that are still around are a conglomeration , a hybrid if you will, of previous styles known to have holes, flaws, and are just flat out missing pieces of the puzzle.

We know that CMA / Kung Fu has weapons , punching , kicking , grappling, etc.

Some styles get their hand work from one system and foot work from another , etc. Is this not MMA??

We also know that Confucianism, Taoism , Buddhism ,Shamanism, Etc are completely independant philosophical systems that overlap and have many common themes and beliefs. Are these not the foundation of CMA/ Kung Fu??

Did not most CMA styles masters have a base system of developement like Tan Tui or Lohan ,which are utilized for the fundamentals ,and then added different aspects of combat as they saw fit??

Everyone talks about TMA and what is right and wrong or correct and incorrect but has done very little to prove anything . It is very difficult to say how traditional TMA/ CMA is right now.

As far as I am concernerd the modern traditions are a joke and have nothing to do with the overall effectiveness of the system/ style. Similar to the rituals and the formalities of religion.

( I KNOW THAT IT IS NOTHING LIKE IT WAS BEFORE. IT HAS BEEN DEMILITARIZED AND FORMULATED FOR MASS CONSUMPTION) .

Most schools teach how they were taught but it does not make it right . And it does n ot mean that this is the way it was always taught or that this is the way that all CMA /TMA schools teach or practice.

Many TMA / CMA schools have fallen into a pitfalls of wanting to make money off of the country of origin , the founder of the style , etc. and have done nothing to give the consumers what they have paid for .

I know that there are many of you that think you know what TMA/ CMA is all about based on your experience , what your teachers have told you, etc. But this does not make it true.

I think there is something to be learned from all martial arts and artist. We are all part of the martial arts puzzle. Like shaolin of old we should all come together and learn from one another and not dismiss or disrespect someone elses chosen style, or other styles/ sytems just because it does not fit in our ideas of what is and is not effective and or applicable.

I am sure with the PROPER TRAINING it is all EFFECTIVE AND APPLICABLE.

I think what can be learned from Modern MMA is what we as TMA / CMArtist, is how it used to be when we had to use it for real and not just as an exercise, social endevor, etc.

I also think that Modern MMA can learn TMA / CMA as well.

[Fu-Pow]

I watched Dan Henderson vs Silva in Pride FC last night and Henderson used several shoulder strikes to Silva's head from the mount in Round 2.

Post some video when becomes available.

[Fu-Pow]

is that Kung Fu/ CMA is a mixed martial art. What I mean is that many of the styles that are still around are a conglomeration , a hybrid if you will, of previous styles known to have holes, flaws, and are just flat out missing pieces of the puzzle.

In regards to CMA it seems that the biggest missing piece is groundfighting.

We know that CMA / Kung Fu has weapons , punching , kicking , grappling, etc.

Some styles get their hand work from one system and foot work from another , etc. Is this not MMA??

It is and it isn't. In a strict sense of the term Mixed Martial Art....yes. However, based on conversations on this board it seems that many MMAist refuse to define their "system" of martial arts as any kind of "system." And would rather define it as a "format" of competition. I find this kind of silly as everyone kind of has a "system" of martial arts, whether they created it or someone else did.

to
We also know that Confucianism, Taoism , Buddhism ,Shamanism, Etc are completely independant philosophical systems that overlap and have many common themes and beliefs. Are these not the foundation of CMA/ Kung Fu??

I think that they are probably less likely foundations as they are addendum's. Taoist, buddhist and confucian concepts are totally fused into Chinese culture whether or not they are thought of as religions.

To give a non-MA example, my friend who is Chinese recently had her father pass away. They are all Christians but they still included Buddhist elements into their funeral service because they are Chinese. To not include them would have been un-Chinese despite their actual religious beliefs.

For a similar reason Chinese martial arts concepts came to be associated with other aspects of Chinese culture despite the fact that the martial artists involved were not really adherents to a particular religion. So for example, the concept of Taiji Quan is to use suppleness to defeat stiffness. This is similar to concepts of philosophy in the Taoist Canon and so the association was made.

Did not most CMA styles masters have a base system of developement like Tan Tui or Lohan ,which are utilized for the fundamentals ,and then added different aspects of combat as they saw fit??

Everyone talks about TMA and what is right and wrong or correct and incorrect but has done very little to prove anything . It is very difficult to say how traditional TMA/ CMA is right now.

As far as I am concernerd the modern traditions are a joke and have nothing to do with the overall effectiveness of the system/ style. Similar to the rituals and the formalities of religion.

( I KNOW THAT IT IS NOTHING LIKE IT WAS BEFORE. IT HAS BEEN DEMILITARIZED AND FORMULATED FOR MASS CONSUMPTION) .

Most schools teach how they were taught but it does not make it right . And it does n ot mean that this is the way it was always taught or that this is the way that all CMA /TMA schools teach or practice.

Many TMA / CMA schools have fallen into a pitfalls of wanting to make money off of the country of origin , the founder of the style , etc. and have done nothing to give the consumers what they have paid for .

I know that there are many of you that think you know what TMA/ CMA is all about based on your experience , what your teachers have told you, etc. But this does not make it true.

Many like myself have been involved in TCMA directly and have come around to see that there is a lot of silliness going on, intentional or not. For example, when I tried to introduce a San Shou sparring program in my old school I was given no support and met with resistance to the point that I had my keys to the school taken away.

It was only through the efforts of myself and like-minded student that any of the younger students actually got an opportunity to spar in a safe and realistic manner. Otherwise they would have never learned jack about self-defense/fighting, only forms and lion dance.

I think there is something to be learned from all martial arts and artist. We are all part of the martial arts puzzle. Like shaolin of old we should all come together and learn from one another and not dismiss or disrespect someone elses chosen style, or other styles/ sytems just because it does not fit in our ideas of what is and is not effective and or applicable.

I am sure with the PROPER TRAINING it is all EFFECTIVE AND APPLICABLE.

I think the dispute is over what constitutes proper training. Only doing forms and unrealistic application practice is not proper training for the goal of learning self-defense/fighting.

I think what can be learned from Modern MMA is what we as TMA / CMArtist, is how it used to be when we had to use it for real and not just as an exercise, social endevor, etc.

I also think that Modern MMA can learn TMA / CMA as well.

I agree with you. The "bank" of knowledge in TCMA is vast and largely untapped. A MMA "system" could definitely be based on a TCMA. Its just that it needs to be a modernized approach (or actually an old school approach depending on how you look at it).

To put it simply all MMA is, is a "back to basics" TMA approach with the addition of
advanced groundfighting skills (which were never really a part of TMA whether for historical or other reasons.)

"Back to basics"=emphasis on conditioning, sparring and realistic drills vs. the current emphasis on forms and unrealistic application training.

So I think it is totally possible to create an MMA system out of TCMA components as long as it is supplemented by a system that has a significant skill base for groundfighting...in addition to the clinch and striking range.

That's my working hyphothesis. ......

FP

[MasterKiller]

Post some video when becomes available.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz3Aya3Dmkc

at 51 seconds and again at 2:16

[Royal Dragon]

To put it simply all MMA is, is a "back to basics" TMA approach with the addition of
advanced groundfighting skills (which were never really a part of TMA whether for historical or other reasons.)

"Back to basics"=emphasis on conditioning, sparring and realistic drills vs. the current emphasis on forms and unrealistic application training.


Reply]
Umm, didn't i reacently say just this very thing, almost word for word somewhere on the forum?

[Fu-Pow]

Looks pretty effective, he's wedging the guys head between his shoulder and the ground.

The Taiji shoulder strike would be from a standing position typically directed at the center of the chest. Rather than twisting the upper body horizontally, the upper body is kind of rolled vertically and the shoulder slams straight in.

Its typically used if the fist and elbow misses or are deflected then the shoulder is rolled ****her forward, its an extremely close range technique.


FP