Claims about MMA

[Notintheface]

Sorry Fu Pow I am not that fast a poster. It takes me a while to type things up.

Quote Fu pow: What do you keep this ready to post around?

You're going to take the weakest examples and say that this is indicative of everyone and every style. That's totally illogical.

Actually, I was sent half of them from my former roommate and the rest I looked up on you tube in order to draw a comparison so as not to seem like i was picking on anyone style or teacher.

Are you saying that these people are the weakest examples of Kung fu? Can you provide better examples of Kung fu self defense? I have been looking at video of Ying ming yang the Chin-na guy, Kenpo videos, silat and many others and they all seem to showing the same kind of material. Not saying all of their techniques are ineffective but a majority of it I would say “Yes it is nonsense.”

Fu Pow
How many ways can build a house with the same materials? How many ways can you cook food with the same ingredients?

Well, argument wise this is comparing apples to oranges but I’ll make it fit. A poorly built home will not provide shelter for long and will crumble. Poorly cooked food would not be eaten unless it is the last resort. Even if you use the same ingredients in a dish one will prove to be tastier and the more effective combination. It is still apples and oranges but a poorly developed Martial Artist will be less effective than a properly prepared, blah,blah blah Martial artist/MMAer/fighter.

Fu pow
To ignore that diversity or shun it is to lose out

That is why you taste, test, observe, test, test, test, test and did I say test something till proven to be useful. This is the way you advance in anything. If not, you may be holding onto something that’s not worth a dam.

Fu pow
So don't try to make MMA about training for "self-defense", that may be a side benefit but the focus is always on competition and those competitions are used as the criteria for what is considered valid and what is not.

Techniques not used in MMA or certain venues like, neck cracks, two handed neck chokes, throws that drop people on their heads, using the point of the elbow, fish hooking, small joint/finger manipulation, or what ever does not mean they do not train them. Do you think so-called MMAers do not actually practice these things? You do understand that most MMAers go to several different schools and learn Muay Thai, Judo, Boxing, ect,ect right? You do understand that a majority of the people training with a MMA mindset will never see the cage or the ring but the percentage of them fighting full contact and testing their skill is greater than 90%.
This will prepare them more than anything I have seen in TMA, TCMA, or even BS MMA schools. If you just did slow roll and technique training grappling would be BS as well.

Fu pow
What I'm saying is there may be some techniques or approaches in TCMA that do not currently exist in the curricula and will help you win matches

I understand what you are saying but can you thus far provide an example?

Fu pow I'm not going to get into the ring vs street argument. That's not the point of this thread. Let's keep it in the ring for now.

The ring gives you one thing those videos and what you are implying do not. In the ring you get hit. Getting used to the notion of being hit and removing that shock fear effect that occurs when you get hit for the first time and your game plan goes out the window.

Fu Pow
I'm just saying that there are some UNIQUE aspects of TCMA in terms of strategy, technique and methodology that WILL find its way into MMA....eventually, despite resistance from its current adherents.

Unique…waiting for an example, plus if you understood MMA they are willing to take in anything that WORKS and will EXPECT it be PROVEN despite the RESISTANCE of those who SWEAR what they do is actually EFFECTIVE. (hehehe see I can do that too)

[Notintheface]

Fu pow
reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.

However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.

Oh, I see now, you are just mad because the Chinese arts are not given KUDOS. Until there is someone ,like Cung Lee, to give Kudos then you are without none. Cung lee is real and truthful about works for him and doesn't mix words. Plus, I would love to see someone with Shuai Jiao experience in the ring do some of those funky throws.

Master Killer
Chinese arts aren't typically "Combat Sports.

"

Combat sport or not they have created Shan Shou plus if the stories of the “Masters’ are true then they must have done some real fighting at some point in time. But like all methods of combat, you have to evolve with the times because it won’t wait to suit you.

Rocks>Spear>Bows>Guns>Missiles

A of these are projectiles but their effectiveness is defined by today’s standards. But they all have their effectiveness grounded in proof. Right now, at this moment, kung fu is lacking that proof of true effectiveness other wise we would be seeing it in the ring or somewhere. This is of course minus those who do test their skill against resistant opponents like San Shou and Shuai Jiao.

Mystic I'd never seen a spinning heel kick attempted in MMA nevermind done successfully (TWICE) until I saw Cung Le's fight with Fryklund.

Yeah but that was not a great fight or a test of Cung’s skills. I just found it odd that Fryk basically just stood there like he was baffeled but yeah Cung Lee is a good fighter I can’t wait to see him go against someone of a higher caliber.

[Ben Gash]

With shoulder strikes? Bull$hit.

OK, as A)I'm a CLF instructor and you're not, B )you've stated time and again that you weren't taught to fight with your CLF, whereas I most definitely was , YOU DON'T GET TO CALL BS ON WHAT I SAY ABOUT CLF!
WTF do you think a Biu Ma is, if not a shoulder and/or hip strike? What do you get if you do Sow Chui at point blank range? What happens if you do a Fun Sau in Ding Ji Ma? Duh, that's right, you hit them with your shoulder

[Fu-Pow]

OK, as A)I'm a CLF instructor and you're not, B )you've stated time and again that you weren't taught to fight with your CLF, whereas I most definitely was , YOU DON'T GET TO CALL BS ON WHAT I SAY ABOUT CLF!
WTF do you think a Biu Ma is, if not a shoulder and/or hip strike? What do you get if you do Sow Chui at point blank range? What happens if you do a Fun Sau in Ding Ji Ma? Duh, that's right, you hit them with your shoulder

A) I WAS a CLF instructor and I don't ever remember stating that I never learned to fight. What's your lineage again....Doc Fai Wong. Yeah good fighters from that branch.

B) Your shoulder strike "technique" is total bull****. I challenge you to show me how that could work...even with compliant partner.

FP

[MysticNinjaJay]

NINJA PLEASE….. You made me spit juice out of my nose! I was so trying to be serious and you gone and made me lose my composure.

Why not? Iron Palm techniques are very similar to training methods in Muay Thai.

Btw, what is your take on Cung Le vs. Tony Fryklund?

[SevenStar]

Why isn't any Chinese martial art on that list? Despite your attempt to side step it, that's my point now isn't it.

because you guys aren't really competing mma - not enough to count it as part of mainstream mma curriculum. THAT is why you don't see chinese styles. Why in the hell would you throw them into a list of mma styles when only .001% of mma competitors train cma?

BTW, don't try to tell me that San Shou is a Chinese Martial Art...its a format.

mma is also a format. mma = striking and grappling. mma = the ruleset used for these striking and grappling venues. mma is a compilation of styles, but is not itself a style.

[Notintheface]

First things first, the only instance iron palm shares with Muay thai training is that the sandbag is a striking pad of sorts. Thai fighters do not want to injure the bone in the shin or in any part of their body. Fighters in Thailand would kick young banana trees, which are quite soft and give easily. Try to do this with a common oak tree down at the local park and you will easily develop stress fractures over time.

Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn't be useful, actually it would be no different then a well place punch.

Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Power generation used in the strike may or may not be useful. The mechanics of throwing a strong punch in different than what I have seen being used on objects. The materials that are broken are not as pliable or yielding as the human body. A majority of the time, especially on the non-trick breaks, the person is injured. Plus I think the padding of the gloves would stop alot of the Iron Palmers skills or so I have been told

The fight was odd.... it just seemed that Fryk was baffled as what to do with Cung Lee. Like the announcer said " He is picking him apart at will." Fryk was just throwing a few low kicks and some half hearted punches. It looked like Fryk was sparring with him and not fighting him but then again Cung lee hits hard, maybe Cung took his heart or something. By the by, I am not a Fryk fan but he did better in Anderson Silva vs Tony Fryklund match. Even though he got knocked out by a reverse elbow fought more than he did against Cung Lee. It was just a weird one sided fight. Oh and FYI I am soooo a Cung Lee fan, I LOVE his throws.

[SevenStar]

My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.

possibly. But mma guys are a show me group. Until The cma world competes mma and consistently demonstrates said uniqueness with effectiveness, the mma world will not even poot in tcma's direction. However, I am curious. What unique things are you referring to? we talked about the "superman punch", which I mentioned has been in muay thai. In yet another thread, the spinning back and crescent were brought up - and they both exist in muay thai as well.

I'm not saying there is nothing unique to cma, however. Please, show it to us - or at least explain it.

[SevenStar]

What I'm saying is there may be some techniques or approaches in TCMA that do not currently exist in the curricula and will help you win matches. To write that off or to say its all "equivalent" is just stupid.

1. show them to us.
2. remember that combat sport styles came from somewhere - generally combat oriented styles. For sport purposes, techniques were removed for various reasons - some because they were malicious in nature and would not mesh with a competitive environment, others because they simply did not work consistently in the the ring.

FYI, I agree with the concept of competition as part of training for self-defense. I'm just saying that there are some UNIQUE aspects of TCMA in terms of strategy, technique and methodology that WILL find its way into MMA....eventually, despite resistance from its current adherents.

resistance? we don't resist it, YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW IT TO US. MMA thrives on evolution. I guarantee you if you can show the mma crowd something that WORKS CONSISTENTLY, not just some technique that you say you have never seen in mma, then you will see mma guys start to adapt it. mma does not have a tornado kick, but until you start seeing people KOed by them in a fairly regular basis, they won't bother trying to learn it. Why should they? they already have a proven format that works. When that format is compromised by something, that is when they adapt and evolve.

[Mr Punch]

Technically only latin countries use Cilantro, in Europe and Asia we use Coriander, a virtually identical yet geneticalyy different herb.

Pervert! I don't know anyone in my hyuuge circle of hubris eating friends who use coriander! Parsley? Yes. Honey? Occasionally. Paprika? Sometimes. Capers/Olives? Optional. Coarse black pepper? Essential...

but coriander? Save that for your Persian Aubergine Dip.

I'm sure if you looked hard enough in any style you could come up with a shoulder strike here or there.

And you don't have to look very hard in many styles either:

there are obvious shoulder strikes in

kendo
wing chun
aikido/jutsu
sumo
wrestling
JJJ
capoeira

to mention but a few that I've seen/been taught first hand or have done myself.

I know this was a small part of the argument but it seems daft to claim any tech as exclusively TCMA. On the contrary I would say that almost every tech has a mirror somewhere else in the world and there is no reason to be ashamed of CMA techs for being the same.

Conversely, I do agree that the argument that 'if it worked it'd be in MMA' is daft. There are some techs that will come back into fashion, or have come back into fashion, as both standing and ground games evolve, and depending as always on the practitioner and his opponent. It's just that where that tech comes from is usually irrelevant to the MMAist as long as it works, and only relevant to the TCMAist who is worried about seeming legitimacy.

I very rarely defend wing chun or aikido, despite them being laughing stocks of MMAists and TCMAists alike (a point of commonality? Unite under WC! Unite under Hakama! ) because I don't care about how others see them. Aspects of them work and have worked very well for me in a variety of settings and that's all I care about... apart from personally making the most out of my training time.

[Notintheface]

Well the difference between you and Fu pow, as I am reading it, that you have your eyes open to what is effective and what isn't. Victor Belfort used some chain punch that could be considered very Wing Chunish to KTFO someone out.

Plus, hell, I love doing old weapons sets but I an not under the delusion that I can go be ****ing General Kwan. If you say you love doing Martial arts for the pure aesthetic pleasure of doing forms then so be it. Who am I to say anything about a person's hobbies? If you say **** my Kung fu works on multiple attackers armed with flaming *****s, I am gonna call BS. No one can beat more that two flaming *****s at one time!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StWbM1OOl74 (starts at min 1:06)

[MysticNinjaJay]

Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn't be useful, actually it would be no different then a well place punch.

By that logic a well placed punch is not useful.

Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Have you seen National Geographic's Fight Science special? I'm not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.


National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)

Power generation used in the strike may or may not be useful. The mechanics of throwing a strong punch in different than what I have seen being used on objects. The materials that are broken are not as pliable or yielding as the human body. A majority of the time, especially on the non-trick breaks, the person is injured. Plus I think the padding of the gloves would stop alot of the Iron Palmers skills or so I have been told

The technique I had in mind was a palm strike.

Keith Hackney floored a 600lb Emmanuel Yarborough at UFC 3. His technique was not as smooth as the one in the video above (some have described it as a flailing b*tch slap) but it landed with alot of force.


I'm not saying that the technique would take the place of a good punch but if done properly may prove effective. I doubt that the MMA glove would interfere with the power of a palm strike.

The fight was odd.... it just seemed that Fryk was baffled as what to do with Cung Lee. Like the announcer said " He is picking him apart at will." Fryk was just throwing a few low kicks and some half hearted punches. It looked like Fryk was sparring with him and not fighting him but then again Cung lee hits hard, maybe Cung took his heart or something.

Cung was throwing some deadly kicks from mid range which made it very difficult for Fryklund to get inside. He tried closing the distance several times with Superman/Cobra punches and managed a few flurries with Cung against the cage late in the fight, but he did seem a bit puzzled throughout the fight plus, though he tried to hide it the body blows were agonizing.

I think he should have tried commiting to his takedowns. He went for atleast 2 high shoots that Cung easily evaded. I've heard that he lost focus of the gameplan his corner directed him to pursue.

By the by, I am not a Fryk fan but he did better in Anderson Silva vs Tony Fryklund match. Even though he got knocked out by a reverse elbow fought more than he did against Cung Lee.

Fryklund got beat in the fight standing as well, but he seemed to fight pretty actively from the clinch. He did alot better than Rich Franklin did against Anderson Silva in the same situation.

It was just a weird one sided fight. Oh and FYI I am soooo a Cung Lee fan, I LOVE his throws.

He has excellent throws though I doubt we will see much of them in his MMA fights since he aims to keep the fights standing. He performed a beautiful hip toss against Brian Warren in their MMA match.

That may be his counter to someone who forces the clinch, looking for a takedown. If he is going to go to the ground it is better he ends up on top. Thats the idea he seemed to be going with.

[Fu-Pow]

because you guys aren't really competing mma - not enough to count it as part of mainstream mma curriculum. THAT is why you don't see chinese styles. Why in the hell would you throw them into a list of mma styles when only .001% of mma competitors train cma?

Fair enough.

mma is also a format. mma = striking and grappling. mma = the ruleset used for these striking and grappling venues. mma is a compilation of styles, but is not itself a style.

Well, which is it? MMA seems to skate out of any discussion/criticism because it seems to defy definition. It can mean anything to anyone at any time so apparently can't really say anything about it all....for or against. It becomes a meaningless term.

[Fu-Pow]

possibly. But mma guys are a show me group. Until The cma world competes mma and consistently demonstrates said uniqueness with effectiveness, the mma world will not even poot in tcma's direction. However, I am curious. What unique things are you referring to? we talked about the "superman punch", which I mentioned has been in muay thai. In yet another thread, the spinning back and crescent were brought up - and they both exist in muay thai as well.

I'm not saying there is nothing unique to cma, however. Please, show it to us - or at least explain it.

When I have tried to explain I have met with:

a) MMA already has that.

b) It useless or MMA would already have that.


FP

[Fu-Pow]

1. show them to us.
2. remember that combat sport styles came from somewhere - generally combat oriented styles. For sport purposes, techniques were removed for various reasons - some because they were malicious in nature and would not mesh with a competitive environment, others because they simply did not work consistently in the the ring.



resistance? we don't resist it, YOU HAVE YET TO SHOW IT TO US. MMA thrives on evolution. I guarantee you if you can show the mma crowd something that WORKS CONSISTENTLY, not just some technique that you say you have never seen in mma, then you will see mma guys start to adapt it. mma does not have a tornado kick, but until you start seeing people KOed by them in a fairly regular basis, they won't bother trying to learn it. Why should they? they already have a proven format that works. When that format is compromised by something, that is when they adapt and evolve.

Its not just techniques. Its the way that the techniques are executed. Its a qualitative difference. In this respect the "internal" arts have something unique to offer.

I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I'm talking about, but honestly I'm not. I've only seriously delved into my Taiji in the last year having practiced it for 10 +. I haven't developed those qualities to the level to be able to demonstrate them consistently but I am beginning to and the whole approach is different.

When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand "short energy" in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.

It seems mystical but its not. I think all of this can be applied in any format. Its unique and different but again it is a qualitative difference and hard for me to quantify for you.

I'm not talking about flashy techniques, I'm not talking about forms, I'm talking about different Jings or skill/energy. Different things that you can do with your body that your opponent is not going to expect.

Its very practical and down to earth. It conserves energy. That's why I'm not understanding the resistance to it. Maybe its too hard to learn?

FP