Claims about MMA

[Ben Gash]

You're on some seriously thin ice Fu Pow, not to mention suffering from selective memory loss You've been a complete a$$ the past few weeks, what's up? Move stressful?
I fought Sanda and sub wrestling (and I'm thinking about returning to San Da next year), my contemporaries fight/fought Kuoshu and my juniors fight Kyokushin, how much more of a fighting club do you want?
Techniques working? Ross shows Sow Chui with the shoulder on one of his DVDs (Punching and Clinching or Combat Sports Camp vol2, I can't remember), and Biu Ma as a hip and/or shoulder strike is done by pretty much EVERY competitive Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo and wrestling guy on the planet

[Fu-Pow]

You're on some seriously thin ice Fu Pow, not to mention suffering from selective memory loss You've been a complete a$$ the past few weeks, what's up? Move stressful?

You're the one that starts insulting me and I'm the ass. Ok, whatever.

I fought Sanda and sub wrestling (and I'm thinking about returning to San Da next year), my contemporaries fight/fought Kuoshu and my juniors fight Kyokushin, how much more of a fighting club do you want?

Great.

Techniques working? Ross shows Sow Chui with the shoulder on one of his DVDs (Punching and Clinching or Combat Sports Camp vol2, I can't remember), and Biu Ma as a hip and/or shoulder strike is done by pretty much EVERY competitive Judo, Ju Jitsu, Sambo and wrestling guy on the planet

Ok let's see video, since that seems to be the gold standard here. We're probably not even talking about the same thing.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Nice Taiji shoulder stroke at 00:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXO...elated&search=

[Ben Gash]

I started throwing insults????
See, sign of stress, feeling attacked and insulted by anyone disagreeing with you.
I disagreed with technical points you've made, you started swearing, making allusions about my teacher and the quality of my kung fu, and accusing me of training unrealistic techniques

[golden arhat]

this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.

yeah well we'll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

[n00854180t]

yeah well we'll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

I think he might have been being sarcastic. *n00854180t performs the Five-Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique on Golden Arhat.*

Seriously though, it seems to me that if CMA is such pointless tripe, perhaps people shouldn't be frequenting the Kung Fu Magazine forums? (And while I realize it's not *only* CMA, and this is the MMA forum, it is *primarily* CMA).


Bleh! Annoying thread.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Now if you are referring to the iron palm secret internal strike or the way it generates power to break bricks, tiles, or concrete then no it wouldn't be useful....Internal strike or Dim Mak has not been prove to exist in any contect and if you say other wise I have a nice bridge to sell you.

Have you seen National Geographic's Fight Science special? I'm not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.


National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training

National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)

Here is an alternate link to the Dim mak, with the sound in synch. Don't ask me why it has crappy alternative commentary.


National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak

[gwa sow]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwa sow
this argument is irrevalent. everyone knows kung fu is to deadly for the cage.

yeah well we'll see what u say when u get punched in the face by fedor

stop trying to console yourself

yea, like i run into him all the time
dude that was a joke. just like this whole thing is, whatever babble he's preaching about. whatever he says about tai chi can be found in choy lay fut if he could have looked into it better.

[Knifefighter]

I wish I was at the level where I could demonstrate what I'm talking about, but honestly I'm not. I've only seriously delved into my Taiji in the last year having practiced it for 10 +. I haven't developed those qualities to the level to be able to demonstrate them consistently but I am beginning to and the whole approach is different.

When you do a shoulder strike in Taiji and you really know how to do it. You can knock someone clear across the room. When you understand "short energy" in Taiji you can fold your opponent in half with a quick pulse. Its actually scary.

You've been doing this stuff for 10+ years, with the last year done quite seriously and you still can't make it work consistently?

Somebody has been drinking too much of the Kool-Aide.

[Notintheface]

By that logic a well placed punch is not useful.

What I was trying get at, not successfully, is that punching power and iron palm striking power = same

Mystic

Have you seen National Geographic's Fight Science special? I'm not endorsing everything on there but there are experts who would disagree with you.
National Geographic: Fight Science - Hard body training
National Geographic: Fight Science - Dim Mak (sound is out of synch)

I hate to burst your bubble mystic but that is far from actual scientific testing. It has a sensational bend to it.

First off, they are comparing the blows of a striker to that of an individual using an object to strike the dummy. Do these individuals know how to properly generate power similar to the ninja dude? Maybe they should of had someone with a baseball background swing the bat? What would that study have been like if the hammer fisting dude hit and then a boxer followed suit striking the dummy in the chest. Or better yet, field test the technique by having the ninja strike the dummy while suspended so that it swayed. It is easy to damage a person when they are at rest and do not move. That is the problem with a lot of the TCMA techniques. They only work under the most optimal conditions and perfectly set up settings. You hit a person with a hammer fist like that and they are one gone move, sway, twist or fold their body to absorb impact. That Fajing type energy can be produced by anyone. Teach it it a stronger person and the output damage is greater but try to apply it in an actual fight and the damage output usually gets negated.

Now if they have several test parameters like having the dim mak guy hit with a certain blow, then a regular person copy that blow, then a boxer, and finally a strong man that knew how to hit. Once all of these people have been gauge, you could put the strikes into proper contexts.

The things with the plum blossom type post could easily get the same result if you tested someone who does high wire training, a Pakour runner, high rise steel beam welder or even a balance beam gymnast.

As for the brick breakers, It is a very cool feat but certain things in that study is not mentioned nor taken into account.


1) First, all the power is generated in a downward moment and full body weight behind it. They would be unable to generate the same power throwing a vertical punch.

2) Like they said, it is a one shot deal that has to be set up perfectly

3) I didn't hear them discuss the structural design importance of the spacers.

4) There are Power hour guys that do the same thing these breakers do and they are untrained but **** me they do it with FAITH power.

5) Well, to answer question MMA wise, it is not possible to generate that kind of power in a downward motion when a resisting opponent is underneath you unless they are motionless. The breaker's muscle stabilizer, if that is what they are called, are in a constant state of flux. They are also on their knees which limits their mechanical power generation because they are unable to generate the torque needed from foot>ankle>hips ect ect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSmMyHV-LmA

Can deliver a lot of ****ing power. I have seen people get flashed knocked out with an open hand palm to the jaw. But the power generated by breakers downward strike is completely different from what you are now suggesting.

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP. That has to do with the concussive force bouncing a person's head of the mat. They have all been flash knock outs. But don't take my word for any of this stuff, go out and test it for yourself.

The effectiveness of the palm has to now be weighed vs the punch. The only problem I see using the palm more often than the punch would be possible stress damage over time. the way they both absorb and redistribute stress impact. But like the videos, a real scientific inquiry would be the only way to test that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIPWWqvpKb4 (Keith Hackney fight)

He did a palm heel strike to Yarr and caused a flash ko or just dizzied him.

I'm not saying that the technique would take the place of a good punch but if done properly may prove effective. I doubt that the MMA glove would interfere with the power of a palm strike.

I can agree with you that it could be effective but as far as the padding goes you may be right of course that is depending on how you strike using the palm. IF you do a dam willow palm I would say no way.

[Knifefighter]

Nice Taiji shoulder stroke at 00:27.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BBXO...elated&search=

That demo is with a partner who is not only complying, but also jumping back.

LOL @ that "shoulder strike". Want to learn how to shoulder strike and be about 10 times as effective as the junk shown on that clip? Just play a year or two of football.

[Knifefighter]

But truth be told, I have never seen anyone get knocked out or injured by a standing palm, strike. I have seen people get knocked out by an open hand strike while they being GNP. That has to do with the concussive force bouncing a person's head of the mat. They have all been flash knock outs. But don't take my word for any of this stuff, go out and test it for yourself.

I have seen a MMA fighter get KO'ed with a palm strike.

That being said, closed fist does much more damage than open palm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of the people I know that train the palm strike, don't do it enough compared to the fist strike, to make it more effective.

Fists cause more superficial damage than the palm, though concussive force would be greater IF the person trained the the palm like the do the fist.
Unfortunatly, as pancrase showed us, most end up "*****slapping" the palm and not really "punching with the palm".

As for breaks, you really need to do them as close to the "real thing" as you can.
In case of a downward strike, you need to strike an unsupported brick.
In case of a "standing" strike, you need to strike a slab or brick standing by its own inertia.

[Knifefighter]

I reject his argument because it sidesteps the point. We can keep adding styles to that list till we're blue in the face.

However, notice that none of them are Chinese. That whole knowledge base has been dismissed as "the same" or with "nothing new to offer" or hong kong phooey.

My point of bringing this up is that there are UNIQUE things from TCMA that can add to the knowledge base of MMA despite the claims of some on this board.

I reject the equivalence argument and the not important argument.

MMA fighters take the majority of theirtechniques from systems developed in Brazil, Japan, the U.S., Thailand, and Russia. Someone didn't arbitrarily decide these were the techniques and systems to be used. They are used because that is what works in the MMA environment. However, most MMA people don't care where something comes from, as long as it works.

[Black Jack II]

Palm strikes can have wicked power if used with the right setup and forward drive, I posted a vid awhile back of a standing powerslap street ko that was on the money, and as for the closed fist does more damage than a palm heel, where do you get that data from??

I am not saying I am giving up my boxing skills any time soon but to degrade the open hand just because of a one linear I don't get.

Below is an example of one of the methods on how I train my power slaps, in world war two they had the nickname of jap slappin, a lot of power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZacZ-_-fQ4