Empiric evidence for MMA

[Fu-Pow]

There alot of claims on this board by those who claim that the MMA approach is more "scientific."

I'd agree, but only if that means that you personally get in there and mix it up.

If you want to post videos of professional fighters competing and claim that proves how bad ass MMA is....remember.....it only says how bad ass THAT PERSON is.

If you want make claims about how good YOUR MMA is compared to CMA then post a video of YOURSELF competing.

There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

You can make fun of TCMA for worshipping its heroes of past, but its really no different than those worshipping the heroes of the present....unless you get in there yourself.

FP

[Hai_To]

I was under the impression that Knifefighter has posted clips of himself competing. As he is one of the people most likely to ask for a TCMA person to back up his claims, it would appear that your challenge has been met.

[WinterPalm]

Which Knifefighter video? The choppy editing halocaust? Or the wing chun match?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have said this many times, any system of H2H combat, be it sport or "reality oriented", if it is going ot be judged, must be judged on the merits of its "average" practioners not its elite.

[gwa sow]

the problem for tcma today are
not many qualified to teach properly
difficult to maintain quality students

there are to many forms collectors running schools. many martial artists in kung fu equate good kung fu to how well and how many forms one knows. now if thats what you want out of kung fu thats fine. but if you want to fight that doesn't help. drill the basics. so many people leran tcma and cant even use jab cross and basic kicks effectively. When running a tcma school there is a mix of people who want to train to fight or just excersise and do forms. its difficult to mix both. a seperate curriculum for both would be good but there is only so much time during the week. also many of the techniques contained in the forms are very diffucult to excecute and many are unrealistic. In any fight only a handful of moves are used. so who will have a greater chance to win. someone who practices these few moves over and over or someone who has a lot of stuff but not enough practice to effectively use it.

[Notintheface]

m•pir•ic ( m-pîr k)empiric
n.
1. One who is guided by practical experience rather than precepts or theory.
2. An unqualified or dishonest practitioner; a charlatan.

Someone please repost this so Fu pow can see this or just the links. He has me on ignore 
What Fu Pow is trying to do is switch the burden of proof from himself to others. He is trying to use the above definition in an improper manner. Someone who is training in the Martial arts with an empiric mindset will use PRACTICAL experience instead of UNPROVEN theory. He will test his/her techniques in actual forced scenarios and decipher which work and which do not. He will not say “Hey throw a lunge punch or a slow jab so I can test this technique to see if it really works.” He would say “Let me work on this technique by you throwing a slow jab so I can practice it, then throw the jab for real, i.e. to hit me, so I can see if my technique works.”

Fupow
There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

Even if the individual making the claim that TMA has nothing to offer yet MMA does, they do not need to post something of themselves to prove it. There is enough empiric data collected in video format created by that average Joe and not some pro fighter. If you ask the same from most people they are unable to produce any such evidence.

Also Fu pow people are not asking you to put up video of yourself to perform but are asking for an example of ANY kung fu tested under pressure that doesn’t turn into San Da. This is still good as far as I am concerned. But San da is a far cry from what Fu Pow is suggesting. Just look at the link of the shoulder strike he posted in the MMA Thread



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJSlIH_xA Average joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stfpm2Z02LQ Average get together of average joe’s at a multi style NY bullshido throw down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8o0MsU3AUg Guy versus girl: Anna is a Thai fighter, I think she just won a title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqE9zaUhc3A Sambo in NY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7RpNXC9zkI Intramural torney in Puerto Rico… more average guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dyM6T3i1II Judo guys at a tourney

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6QvmsXpLoY OMG kids that are 7 years old understand testing the skill. But wait isn’t the techniques to deadly?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQCga...elated&search= SOME BAD ASS KIDS MMA not pros lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmoxFIT1iZ0 Kids Judo Empiric data.. I GRAB LEG SHE FALL DOWN GO BOOM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QvEt...elated&search= Kids Judo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxP3V...elated&search= Shuai Jiao average joe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p3Wr...elated&search= Kyokushin

[Fu-Pow]

I was under the impression that Knifefighter has posted clips of himself competing. As he is one of the people most likely to ask for a TCMA person to back up his claims, it would appear that your challenge has been met.

Knifefighter has....I respect him for that. He's the only one ever to make it off of my ignore list.

[Knifefighter]

There alot of claims on this board by those who claim that the MMA approach is more "scientific."

I'd agree, but only if that means that you personally get in there and mix it up.

If you want to post videos of professional fighters competing and claim that proves how bad ass MMA is....remember.....it only says how bad ass THAT PERSON is.

If you want make claims about how good YOUR MMA is compared to CMA then post a video of YOURSELF competing.

There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

You can make fun of TCMA for worshipping its heroes of past, but its really no different than those worshipping the heroes of the present....unless you get in there yourself.

FP

There is a big difference between pointing to one's teacher or to those who have supposedly done things in the past versus using documented, openly viewed competitions as examples of what can and cannot work.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out someone else using specific fighting approaches, as long as these approaches can be documented.

MMA fighters are good examples of people who use specific, workable techniques consistently at high levels.

Want to see some examples of what TMA techniques can effective? Watch Cung Le or Georges St. Pierre.

[Fu-Pow]

There is a big difference between pointing to one's teacher or to those who have supposedly done things in the past versus using documented, openly viewed competitions as examples of what can and cannot work.

My point is that the difference is one of degree, not either you train a documented MMA system (for instance the combo of Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai) and you automatically become good or you train in a undocumented TCMA system and you suck.

Its how YOU approach YOUR training. Ultimately, it comes back to the individual and how YOU build YOUR training "system" and make it work for YOU.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out someone else using specific fighting approaches, as long as these approaches can be documented.

MMA fighters are good examples of people who use specific, workable techniques consistently at high levels.

My point is that there are many people who claim to be MMA fighters that don't ever fight. Can they claim any more legitimacy to their "system" than those who train traditionally?

Perhaps, they can. But its a matter of degree. Yes, they have their teacher documented fighting. However, its not a clear indicator of what they individually can do.

So they can talk till blue in the face about how superior MMA is to other approaches but it says nothing about what you can do. All it tells us is that someone made it work for THEM.

They may have more confidence because their teacher is a documented fighter. However, regardless of what system you create or sign on to in order to make it work you have to get in there and do it yourself.

And in this respect I admire those in the MMA camp for this approach. And I admire those in the TMA camp that follow that same path.

I think that those in TMA not already doing this, can take that same approach and cut through the B.S. from their styles and get back to the "root", the "specific, workable techniques"...... without losing the aspects and specialties of TMA that make them unique.

This means that some techniques are going to have to be trained outside of an competitive environment because they're not legal in a sport competition. However, those techniques that are compatible can definitely be trained and applied in a sporting arena.

Right now I'm working on extracting techniques from my Taiji form that can be applied wearing boxing gloves and trained repetitively.

Want to see some examples of what TMA techniques can effective? Watch Cung Le or Georges St. Pierre.

I'm not familiar with Georges St. Pierre but Cung Le's background seems to be from TMA in general and not TCMA.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=46993

That's what I'm advocating for here. I'd also like to see a hybrid San Shou/MMA event that only allows groundfighting for a limited time frame, something like 10-20 seconds. It would make for a better event.

FP

[Royal Dragon]

That's what I'm advocating for here. I'd also like to see a hybrid San Shou/MMA event that only allows groundfighting for a limited time frame, something like 10-20 seconds. It would make for a better event

Reply]
I would also like to see Kuo Shou do the same. I really like the Kuo Shou format, but it needs to grow beyond the amature level.

[Notintheface]

I did a search for kung fu sparring. It came up at "of about 700 ". What made you pick these select few?

Oddly, mine didn't come up at all. I must not know the system well enough yet.

When I searched "Kung fu sparring" on youtube the material that came up was two man set, kickboxing that was supposed to be kung fu, sand da and something that I truly don't know what it would be considered. So, instead of putting up the worse clips I found, I took my time and put up some of the better ones. Mind you, I had the "average joe" representation concept in my head.

Abel kindly put up clips that you think represents Kung fu at its finest or even at its average.

__________________________________________________ _________________________

[SifuAbel]

In other words, "you do all the work". I'll take my time.

Here's me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8YZB5hta6A

[sanjuro_ronin]

There alot of claims on this board by those who claim that the MMA approach is more "scientific."

I'd agree, but only if that means that you personally get in there and mix it up.

If you want to post videos of professional fighters competing and claim that proves how bad ass MMA is....remember.....it only says how bad ass THAT PERSON is.

If you want make claims about how good YOUR MMA is compared to CMA then post a video of YOURSELF competing.

There's a big hypocrisy in asking TCMA adherents to post video of themselves doing something and yet the MMA adherents only put up clips of OTHER PEOPLE doing something.

You can make fun of TCMA for worshipping its heroes of past, but its really no different than those worshipping the heroes of the present....unless you get in there yourself.

FP

Here is the thing, sport combat people are very much "show me" people.
They don't take the claims of anyone, though they do tend to be ok with claims from people that train in a "recognized" system that has proved its self over and over , not just once or twice.
TMA tend to either "stick with their own" in terms of competition or tend to fall in the "too deadly" crap arena.
The fact that the majority of MA and sport combat arts ARE TMA is ignored and to an extent irrelevant.

Yes, in the end all that matter is what WE can do, YET, training in a system that is being "proven" and that can be "proven", gives people reason to say "show me".

Granted that proof is contextual, nevertheless, it is right to say "show me".

[SifuAbel]

I did a search for kung fu sparring. It came up at "of about 700 ". What made you pick these select few?

Oddly, mine didn't come up at all. I must not know the system well enough yet.

[Mas Judt]

What I don't understand is the lack of confidence on the part of many CMA players. I have never experienced any slight from MMAers - only respect. There is a lot of great stuff in CMA, but also a lot of cr@p training methodology. I have yet to meet a hardcore CMA guy who did not play hard with the MMA crowd.

The MMA argument is one my Shuai Chiao group was making decades ago. This is not a new argument. There is validity on both sides. We need to drop the cultural BS and look towards the training methodology.