Aikido vs Bagua Zhang

[Mr Punch]

O- Sensei absolutley spent a great deal of time in the southern part of china some in fukien and also guanzhou.
The story is that he trained Chinna as well as tai ji

Whose story?

However at this time bagua was a closed art reservered for bodyguards or extremely reliable Chinese individuals as well as family training.

So again, what makes you think that Chinese masters in tai chi or chin-na would want to teach the invaders of their country aspects of fighting? Especially given the conquerors' war record.

The resemblence to bagua is easily explained, all chinese martial arts come from the same mother to quote my Grand master. Tai JI and Bagua have similar movements in many areas.

That's the resemblance of tai chi or chin na to bagua? Or are you talking about aikido?

THe biggest difference between bagua and Aikido

...apart from the footwork, the power generation, the basic principles...

is that ... true Aikido is defensive to the core.

No it isn't! That was my point before. Of course it depends on your definition of 'true' aikido: if you mean the watered-down non-martial aikido of today, you may have a point, but pre-war aikido was based on the old koryu meaning of 'aiki': i.e. that aiki is the equilibrium to be destroyed (by kuzushi). Nothing to do with the harmonization of your spirit with your attacker's. And it was not defensive. Look at Yoshinkan (which I'm not particularly fond of but it's an example of aikido based on the earlier pre-war model of aiki from Ueshiba): everything starts with a strike/attack to provoke a defensive response in uke, which is then used to get kuzushi.

And not only in yoshinkan, but in all forms of aiki, Ueshiba insisted that you should step straight in and take your opponent's centre, and only if that attacking motion was prevented/blocked/jammed in some way should you resort to the more familiar to layman evasive footwork and circular hand techniques.

The epitome of the gentlemens self defense.

Well, maybe, but I don't really believe in gentlemen as my countrymen are still supposed to epitomize gentlemen to many countries around the world and I've never seen much evidence of them actually existing! Do you have video evidence!?

of course i am sure no one else will agree so it really does not matter.

Maybe it doesn't really matter, but thanks for the discussion anyway.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I am pretty sure that i have several years of pain preceding your interest in a clash.

ANd i think O-sensei is right in many regards, however i will reply that your post is just plain confrontational and does not address issues that deal with modern combat.

If O-Sensei said that go in is the rule then i stand corrected.
If he had no problem with DESTROYING the target before proliferation than i submit.

Otherwise Know that i train AiKIdo to augment my throws the same as i train Ju Jitsu and Wrestling for the ground

As for bagua it is far more aggressive than Aikido, this i stll maintain

[Mr Punch]

I am pretty sure that i have several years of pain preceding your interest in a clash.

I've no idea what this means!

ANd i think O-sensei is right in many regards, however i will reply that your post is just plain confrontational and does not address issues that deal with modern combat.

Er, I think he was right in many regards too. Why is my post confrontational? I've got no beef with you: you expressed some opinions and I asked you some questions to clarify some things I wasn't sure about. Another day on the discussion forums! And how does my post not deal with 'modern combat'?

If O-Sensei said that go in is the rule then i stand corrected.
If he had no problem with DESTROYING the target before proliferation than i submit.

Of course, Ueshiba's life was a continuum, so if I do say that that was his philosophy, I'm out of necessity discarding contradicting things he said afterwards, which is why obviously people have a lot of different opinions regarding what he said and the nature of aikido in general and his specifically.

But, from the days (pre war when he went to Iwama if my chronology's right) when his aikido was practical as an MA he said things about going straight in, although even then he shied away from such expression as 'destroy' AFAIK. After the war, as his aiki and philosophy got softer and softer, and it's then that I think, under most people's definitions, that aiki became something other than an MA.

Otherwise Know that i train AiKIdo to augment my throws the same as i train Ju Jitsu and Wrestling for the ground

Good for you.

As for bagua it is far more aggressive than Aikido, this i stll maintain

Quite probably, yes.

[Cheng oi]

Through my studies I have found that Aikido and Bagua have many similar aspects to them. I am aware of the history surrounding both arts and the stories about the basis for aikido being in Bagua( ??true or not??)I was wondering what you all thought about this ?

that one style of BaguaZhang is like Aikido - I think - but I don't know very much about Aikido

[Cheng oi]

I'll be doing Bagua

[Sima Rong]

Aikido theoretically should be possible for almost anyone...however, as it involves a lot of kneeling techniques, it may not be so good for you.
Ueshiba had kung fu. His training was very hardcore, and changed later on due to his age and spiritual beliefs.

[Cheng oi]

Aikido theoretically should be possible for almost anyone...however, as it involves a lot of kneeling techniques, it may not be so good for you.
Ueshiba had kung fu. His training was very hardcore, and changed later on due to his age and spiritual beliefs.

I have to do everything in a slow Qigong fashion
Taiji is perfect for me - But I am committing to Baguazhang as well as Tai Chi - it doesn't leave any time for anything else

only Chinese martial arts for me - The Gods have spoken

[Golden Arms]

Ueshiba trained was trained in Daito Ryu by Takeda Sokaku prior to his founding Aikido. High level Daito Ryu methods very much embody the type of skills that he was famous for, and they have some overlap with Tai Chi and Bagua in how the body is used and how things are explained. Although it is possible that Ueshiba saw or trained a bit of one of these Chinese arts, there was no need to for him to learn the type of material he appears to have practiced his whole life, it is all right there in Takeda Sokaku's art.

[Alex Córdoba]

Have to look around for a clip, but there is footage of an American with NO TRAINING asking one of Ueshiba's top students to fight him, in the subsequent match, one of the TOP GUYS in Aikido couldn't do a darn thing to a guy with NO TRAINING... very well documented. If I find the clip, all the better of course

After all this years.. I would like to see this video.

[LaterthanNever]

it's a shame the late Sensei David J. Harris is not alive to answer your question. He studied: Aikido, Aikijitsu, Ba Gua..and also Tai Ji, Hsing Yi, ****o-Ryu Karate, Red Boat Wing Chun and perhaps a half a dozen other arts.

They were all one in the same to him(after studying them for close to half a century). He internalized it to the point where what he did on his opponents didnt even seem human!!