Aikido vs Bagua Zhang

[Mr Punch]

Methinks someone isn't really doing this and is just theorizing (incorrectly) about what is supposed to happen. As someone who has taken (ending up the the hospital once) and given a few groin shots for real, I can tell you the reaction is definitely not to pop back up.

That's exactly what I was saying.

And sure, you could imitate it, but it's still not going to be with real energy, as we can get from hung-le's mistaken assumption that the opp is just going to stand up straight again.

[firepalm]

lkfmdc said

I think you're a fruit loop and a great example of everything that is wrong with CMA today.....

Just checked in & had to say that was funny as hell!

[Water Dragon]

Very good point, except that for most aikidoka I've met (which is a hell of a lot) their spirituality has taken the form of an unbearable smugness in the higher power of belief... that they can beat everyone but they would never show it, because that wouldn't be spiritual!

Spirituality and fighting ability rarely coincide. That doesn't mean martial arts aren't worth studying for spiritual purpose. You simply need to define your goal.

ps, I do know the tyoe you're talking about, and I don'e like em either. But, they tend to be a minority, even if a vocal minority of people who do ma.

[hung-le]

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;778631]

Are you actually hitting each other in the face and groin full contact during randori? Because if you are not, basing your follow ups based on the "simulation" that you are doing it is just as McDojoish as any McDojo out there.

Yep the first time I did Randori with these fellows I was floored, I took a full shot to the face, no gloves and the guy was on the run. The attacks they use are real...

Difference: You have had to have seen Aikido Randori its not your normal "one on one" sparring match. Just picture a bunch of seroius Aikidoka (thier cops for pete's sake) really going at it...for reality sakes...They don't have the option of faking it... Hope that makes sense...

Methinks someone isn't really doing this and is just theorizing (incorrectly) about what is supposed to happen. As someone who has taken (ending up the the hospital once) and given a few groin shots for real, I can tell you the reaction is definitely not to pop back up.

No and No and No It has happened...Let someone run up on you in randori and kick you in the groin....if you don't double over...you are the Man! and when you pop back up and your not staring at the ceiling.."you really are the man!

However, it was more of a (apparently bad) generalization to show some people how Aikido does work...
make sense..Hope so you don't seem the type to play Bullshido word games....

Have you been to any aikido and or traditional JJJ schools that train full-resistance, free randori or are you just talking about individual practioners who have gone out to train and mix it up with others?

Although this wasn’t directed at me.

I listed some Judo and Jujitsu dojo that I workout at.
(it was an attempt to imply that yes I have been in environments where the Tori and the Uki have gone at it full contact (by full contact, I mean full throttle rolling, no shots…but I find throwing shots to be more geared towards Aikido) and yes I have pulled Aikido specific techniques.. which at times have gotten my azz chewed out. (IT was explained we are not doing Aikido here!!!!…lol….

[hung-le]

Don't need it, you're making 'my side' look like morons... like I said - not calling you a moron, just maybe your explanations need some sharpening up.

Currently, no, not regularly, but I've been doing aiki/jutsu since 90. Started under one of the UK's first direct students (and dan grades) of Abbe and Nakazono (both as I'm sure you know Ueshiba's students) among others, and have also trained with Tada (another one of Ueshia's direct students) in Tokyo, and a direct inside student of daito-ryu's Sagawa and Kimura. I've also used (and failed to use) aiki principles and some techs full-contact full speed in MMA sparring, something I doubt you have, hence my question (unanswered) about what you meant by 'stunned', and what you think happens when you kick someone in the nuts etc.

What is this the word game? what do you think happens when someone cracks you in the face then kick you in the jimmies....?

If the kaiten-nage is a kaiten-nage the irimi-nage is wasted motion. I.e. if the kaiten-nage is straight throw, you can just stuff them into the floor... if you're looking for pretty throws with a compliant/semi-compliant partner, you can afford to drag them back up for the irimi. And before you say it, people don't just straighten up if you do let the kaiten-nage off enough for them to 'fight back' allowing for the irimi - they struggle to pull out of it sideways, every time. Try it on someone who hasn't trained aiki. Go on, you won't break them, I promise!

O my God!!! STFU! Here you go acting like a ****!~ Noob!

Assuming from your explanation that every time you've kicked someone in the nuts they've doubled over and you've been able to irimi them as they come back up, I'd have to assume:

Tried to make an azz of me and in the process made one yourself.

Who said doubling over was always a standard response.....Quit playing some Byullshido......cheap internet BS word game....

1) you've never/very rarely kicked someone in the nuts,

LOl.....stupid

2) you've never done this in the dojo other than by simulation... 'OK, so now I kick you in the nuts, and you double over... OK, not like that, double over this way, then you stand up in this direction...'

you need to get out more...

3) you can't do kaiten-nage, or have never done a straight-through kaiten-nage on a resisting person

yep...this tells me a lot of your skill level....

You're insulting me without answering my questions.

why not? your full of it

Sounds like you ain't either... spending too much time bleeding and puking on the mat!

I gave the names and places I work out..stop by snap that belt and yell OSE! see what happens.... anything else you have to say I'm not listening......

It's been my experience that people who do Aiki Daitoryu do it cause they can't handle Aikido... Your living up to others that I know.....great job keep up the good work

[Knifefighter]

Yep the first time I did Randori with these fellows I was floored, I took a full shot to the face, no gloves and the guy was on the run. The attacks they use are real...
Difference: You have had to have seen Aikido Randori its not your normal "one on one" sparring match. Just picture a bunch of seroius Aikidoka (thier cops for pete's sake) really going at it...for reality sakes...They don't have the option of faking it... Hope that makes sense...

What school is this?

[Mr Punch]

you're not answering any of my questions, just b!tching with ad hominem. i've told you my background, an d my reasoning behind what i say, you've come back with bs. you cant hold a conversation : you're an irrational bs-ing ass.

fair enough.

one last thing: you dont know anyone who does daito ryu because there arent any in the US... by all means tell me who you've trained with.

pr!ck.

[Mr Punch]

What school is this?

and is that the school that's practising full contact nutshots? d@mn, knife, you don't wanna go there.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I thought this thread would be a video posting of an aikido guy vs. a bagua guy. Figured one guy would just stand there waiting to be grabbed, then hold hands and fall down, while the other dude would be walking in an endless circle.

I'm disappointed.

[hung-le]

What school is this?

Aikido-Yoshokai Detroit

17609 Livernois Ave
Detroit, MI
48221
Phone: (313) 438-2770

I came from a Koei Kan karate Dojo which is about as tuff as it gets…. these guys can fight

I'm not into is all the Ki metaphysics that they do (although….they don’t really focus on it ...basically I show up during the day practice with the law (who ignore all that….) then jet..


I think it’s important that the focus is on Aikido and its martial viability. People here tend to come from the premise that “its only effective if it’s used in MMA” is correct most of the time…….but at the same time not really spot on… What’s more real? Fighting in a MMA bout or fighting an assailant on the street (as most cops do on a day to day bases…) The guys I practice with, although don’t do MMA they train their Aikido with the same intensity.

Institute a high grade of realism into any art and one learns to be effective. To deny that Aikido is the same as any other art doesn’t makes sense. Granted we do have a lot of judo and jujitsu in what we do…(which probably plays into Ikfmdc argument…yet I don’t draw a strong distinction between Judo, Jujitsu or Aikido I do them all…I prefer Aikido though…One Ryu focuses on Nage, one focuses on Kansetu and one Ai Nage

[hung-le]

you're not answering any of my questions, just b!tching with ad hominem. i've told you my background, an d my reasoning behind what i say, you've come back with bs. you cant hold a conversation : you're an irrational bs-ing ass.

fair enough.

one last thing: you dont know anyone who does daito ryu because there arent any in the US... by all means tell me who you've trained with.

pr!ck.

I’m not answering your questions ….Why? Why in the **** would I entertain you Bullshido crap mentality? Why.....?

I came to your defense and you started on me...Then you try to lecture to me on what technique does what…Lol and continue to play word games... cause I said I’ve taken a shot to the groin during randori and it resulted in me getting hammered by a irimi nage.
All of a sudden that makes me some sort of BS Internet troll?????


…STFU! You blowing way to much hot air at this site and your getting sillier the more this goes on….just STFU! can you?

[Mr Punch]

hence my question (unanswered) about what you meant by 'stunned', and what you think happens when you kick someone in the nuts etc.

What has happened when you've kicked someone in the nuts? Simple question. No Bullshido word games (whatever they may be - I have about 11 posts on Bullshido).

Have you ever kicked someone full on in the nuts?
No Bullshido word games: it's a yes/no answer.

What happened? No Bullshido word games.

If the kaiten-nage is a kaiten-nage the irimi-nage is wasted motion. I.e. if the kaiten-nage is straight throw, you can just stuff them into the floor... if you're looking for pretty throws with a compliant/semi-compliant partner, you can afford to drag them back up for the irimi. And before you say it, people don't just straighten up if you do let the kaiten-nage off enough for them to 'fight back' allowing for the irimi - they struggle to pull out of it sideways, every time. Try it on someone who hasn't trained aiki.

Which part of this did you disagree with? I'm open to discussion.

[mawali]

I do see parallels between baquazhang and aikido but modern practitioners will never measure up to the MMA crosstrained crowd. A certain degree of cooperation is needed at th beginning for both baqua and aikido but it may appear people do not get beyond taht stage of training.

Why do I use MMA as a scale? Because anyone with physical conditioning, who can hit hard and throw hard can prevail against secret or lineage trainingso you do not have to pay extra for what you already possess! Hey, lineage is expensive!
Resistance is needed to develop the attack pattern and respond so if you meet a real person, you can at least run!

[Mr Punch]

I’m not answering your questions ….Why? Why in the **** would I entertain you Bullshido crap mentality? Why.....?

because it might make you look like you knew what you were talking about? search me. looks like you need credibility.

I came to your defense and you started on me...

I told you i didn't need any defence: nobody was attacking me. and i didnt start on you, i asked you some qestions... er, which you still haven't answered, despite my having answered yours.

cause I said I’ve taken a shot to the groin during randori and it resulted in me getting hammered by a irimi nage.
All of a sudden that makes me some sort of BS Internet troll?????

i didnt say you were a troll, and i didnt mention bs until you'd attacked me ad hominem several times.

you didnt say you'd taken a shot to the groin, that's why i was asking clarification on your groin shot experience.

…STFU! You blowing way to much hot air at this site and your getting sillier the more this goes on….just STFU! can you?

you appear to be quite hysterical. try sucking on a tittie (if your mum will let you).

[greendragon]

O Sensei probably witnessed some bagua but not trained in it. Circular movements are a natural conclusion when following nature (physics).
BTW, if aikido engaged in 'real fighting', the participants would have broken limbs. The hokey attacks in demos are just training exercises derived fron the sword art, many movements are based on sword cuts. Give a quickly trained MMA fighter a sword or a weapon to fight with LOL !! Aikido does work best when the fighter has trained in the striking arts as well. O.K. now you can flame away, but please, contemplate your own intent.