Aikido vs Bagua Zhang

[tattooedmonk]

None of those sources talk about regenerating cells in the same area they were lost or at all, read explicitly. One dealt with the hippocampus spawning new cells and not the other parts of the brain, one dealt only with non-humans, and nother just stated they could be compensated for with improved connections. By the way, tattoed monk,


LEARN NOT TO BE A FORUM NOOB AND USE THE MOTHER****ING EDIT BUTTON!

actually if you read the one from Princeton in 2000 they say that the only place they did not regenerate was in the visual part of the brain. Why do I care abuut the editing button this thread has gone to **** because of guys like you anyway.

[hung-le]

Obviously, and I don't mean this an insult, but you aren't getting my argument here

Aikido is not a fighting art.

I’m not sure what you are implying.. Certainly you can’t be saying that all Aikido is crap… Aikido has some serious projection throws that somehow you have come to believe only entail the opponent moving (through some fake cooperation ...lol.... …

If he doesn’t move I make him move! (through Atemi waza..... If he still doesn’t move then I move…Then it becomes Martial NFL time…

There is another side of Aikido that apparently you haven’t seen and it evolves getting the opponent to “cooperate” through actual Atemi waza.. I.e. Setting up the Akido specific Nage, Katame, Shime and Kansetsu techniques…through real striking and kicking…

Nothing like getting struck in the face, as your stunned kicked in the groin, then spun into a Tsuki Irmi-Nage. One doesn’t get up from that…. That’s how Akido works against someone skilled. To say that it can’t or doesn’t happen is like saying no one gets hit in a fight….REDICULIOUS bull****to crap!……

Also isn’t this how Judo or Jujistsu works too? I don’t see anyone dumb enough to think they can walk up to someone and just pull a Koshi guruma without smashing the guys face with some sort of atemi


Sensei Nikura (who trained under Ueshiba himself) … of Sterling Heights, Michigan has one BAD ASS class. Most of them are Detroit cops and there usually blood or vomit on the mat after each practice. Their Aikido is highly effective and very realistic. It has to be!!!!! They are ****ing Detroit cops! Their lives depend on it … Stop by….. Snap your belt and yell “OSE!” See what happens next…..


Judo, Jujitsu and Aikido are all from the same cloth…yet have specific techniques unique to their arts…they all are effective


Just so you don’t get the idea I’m full of crap……..Before that, I trained (in other arts as well....) in Koei Kan Karate ( A mixture of Karate and Jujitsu) under the North American Technical instructor Sensei Frost. 5th Dan. One tuff mean cuss! “Said respectfully on my part) …….. Since its conception …..long before the MMA craze… Koei Kan Karate has been doing full contact in bogo armor to include the ground game …. Talk about a bunch of maniacs who love to fight! Picture a dark hole in the wall dojo with blood stains on just about every square inch of the mat, the smell of sweat so pungent in burns your nostrils and an all steel Makiwara in the corner. ”*****’s need not apply” Not the standard run of the mill Mcdojo……… I also roll at Troy Judo academy and the Farmington Judo and Jujitsu club, I’ve even worked out with Olympic judoka ( and could hang just fine…


I’m telling you my experience because I often pull off Aikido techniques against expert Judo and Jujitsuka in randori . That said I have to be careful because of the unknown factor (as you SHOULD know …not knowing the direction or type of throw can result in a serious slam…which tends to **** people off…..Sport Judo doesn’t allow for some of the Aikido techniques…..and I found Jujitsuka are just as susceptible to Aikido waza..(all of them……in reference to their skill level of course ..)


Akido if studied correctly is one hell of a martial art Of course I’ll admit there are some lame ass akido dojo out there…but that can be said of just about every art


Certainly Ikfmdc you can't be saying all Aikido is crap are you?

[Mr Punch]

Obviously, and I don't mean this an insult, but you aren't getting my argument here

You're right - I wasn't. Go back and look at that little exchange.

I said there is good and bad aikido.
I then said (in response to your part of your post about JJ being irrelevant to modern training/fighting) that JJJ still produces some good fighters.

You said, there was one of Ueshiba's top guys who got schooled by an untrained American guy... which apart from being totally anecdotal without even so much as a name, it's alsoa compete non-sequitur.

Aikido is not a fighting art.

Agreed, mostly.

Any attempt to make it so is just "reversion" to older Aikijujitsu, ie older classical jujitsu, but I'll get to that in a minute

Strongly disagree, as with the statement 'any attempt to make CMA a fighting art is just 'reversion' to kickboxing or MMA'. There are people who can roll/spar uncooperatively with aikido with atemi and weally wuff thwows (with no protection other than cup/mouthguard - but then that's the same with kyokushin)... it looks like MMA (and of course most of them crosstrain - but again that's the same as anyone sensible in CMA these days) with a strong semblance to judo/jujutsu in MMA.

As for vid, Japan has a population of about 126 million, with good fighters coming from many places, and no, while I've never seen an aikidoka in MMA before (and I will still stick by the statement that most aikidoka are not interested - it's against the basic tenets - and if you say that's BS, fair enough, but I will say I've never met anyone as competetive over anything even in daily life as Americans, and while I'm not judging that position, I don't think that many Americans I've met genuinely understand the opposite position) I can honestly say that I reckon about 125,999,000 people in Japan are not interested in videoing any aspect of their daily life to prove it to unknown people on the internet.

I honestly wished I remembered all the details because it would make finding the clip a lot easier. American film crew was filming Ueshiba and one of his top guys, it may even be the founder of Tomiki Aikido but dont' quote me, I am NOT sure

I'd really like to see it, or even, if there is no vid available ( aaaaaargh!) read about it. BTW the founder of Tomiki was Tomiki, if you're still looking. It still deosn't really seem relevant - and if it was Tomiki he was also a high level judoka if I remember rightly.

But when you start doing randori, by definition you are not doing classical jujitsu. Classical jujitsu died after the police college, that's just a point of fact

No, that's an opinion. And one that I disagree with. Classical jujutsu evolved after the Police College challenge. Boxing started with upright stances, sweeps, and throws, no rounds, punches below the belt, little bobbing or weaving, vertical fists and just wrapping or no gloves at all: would you say 'Boxing died after the Marquis of Queensbury rules came in'?!

there are only two "models", those that work and those that don't. Without randori, a martial art is destined for failure. With randori, what it practices and how it practices will of course change

Agreed, with the reservation indictaed next:

Aikido has no randori.

Nonsense. Even all the soft aiki schools have randori (ie people attacking with unprescribed attacks), and while they believe it's real, they have little concept of resistance.

It's "signature moves" require unrealistic attacks and compliant partners.

If you show me a guy doing o-soto gar into juji gatame, I don't care if his hakama says "Aikido", it is not aikido, it isn't even Aikijujitsu, it is a derivative of Judo, ie a derivative of randori

Strongly disagree. Its signature moves require atemi.
And if I do iriminage and bring my lead leg back to maintain my own stance and continue with the kuzushi on my opponent, it looks like a judo throw (seen it many times, but don't know the term - may be osoto gari, is that the outer leg reap thing?)... YOU don't know the difference. Juji gatame isn't in aikido, but it was definitely in daito-ryu, so again, if that reversion means it's not aiki I think you're missing the point.

Do you know what 'aiki' means? To most modern aikido people who subscribe to postwar Ueshiba and Kisshomaru, it means the gag about harmonizing with the energy of the opponent and the universe. Nice, if that's what they want to believe.

In classical aiki it roughly means 'balance'/'equilibrium', the point being that that is what you are supposed to disrupt by kamae/atemi/waza leading to kuzushi.

So, I'm not going to say that an aikidoka doing a juji gatame is still doing aikido, but I will say it fits in perfectly with aiki.

[Mr Punch]

By the way, tattoed monk...

STFU noob.

If you don't want to read it don't read it.

And quit with the annoying big letters.

[Mr Punch]

How can you say the spiritual is nonsense or has no practical value? The spiritual may have a lot MORE value than the martial in this day and age.

Very good point, except that for most aikidoka I've met (which is a hell of a lot) their spirituality has taken the form of an unbearable smugness in the higher power of belief... that they can beat everyone but they would never show it, because that wouldn't be spiritual!

[Mr Punch]

Nothing like getting struck in the face, as your stunned kicked in the groin, then spun into a Tsuki Irmi-Nage. One doesn’t get up from that….

LOL! Practise that often do you?

You sound like an idiot (now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but I think the burden of proof is falling on you...).

Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face? And you would go into iriminage from a groin kick?

Most of them are Detroit cops and there usually blood or vomit on the mat after each practice.

[hung-le]

LOL! Practise that often do you?

You sound like an idiot (now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you are an idiot, but I think the burden of proof is falling on you...).

Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face? And you would go into iriminage from a groin kick?

wow you must be a grade A AZZhole! no wonder guys are taking shots at you...


I was in on your side….

You do Aikido?…Hmmmmm? I wonder...... When is the last time someone did a snap down and spun you ( as in Katatetori Kaiten -Nage) and when you popped back up hit you with an Irimi Nage from the reverse direction?

pretty standard stuff....

….Or you telling me that never has happened…

Now its my turn to roll my eyes

I think u are the NOOOB!




same happens when you take a shot to the groin…..when you pop back up….

Randori???? ….you don’t sound like your doing it….

[Mr Punch]

wow you must be a grade A AZZhole! no wonder guys are taking shots at you...

Who's taking shots at me? Chill pal. It's just a difference of opinion.

I was in on your side….

Don't need it, you're making 'my side' look like morons... like I said - not calling you a moron, just maybe your explanations need some sharpening up.

You do Aikido?…Hmmmmm?

Currently, no, not regularly, but I've been doing aiki/jutsu since 90. Started under one of the UK's first direct students (and dan grades) of Abbe and Nakazono (both as I'm sure you know Ueshiba's students) among others, and have also trained with Tada (another one of Ueshia's direct students) in Tokyo, and a direct inside student of daito-ryu's Sagawa and Kimura. I've also used (and failed to use) aiki principles and some techs full-contact full speed in MMA sparring, something I doubt you have, hence my question (unanswered) about what you meant by 'stunned', and what you think happens when you kick someone in the nuts etc.

I wonder...... When is the last time someone did a snap down and spun you ( as in Katatetori Kaiten -Nage) and when you popped back up hit you with an Irimi Nage from the reverse direction?

If the kaiten-nage is a kaiten-nage the irimi-nage is wasted motion. I.e. if the kaiten-nage is straight throw, you can just stuff them into the floor... if you're looking for pretty throws with a compliant/semi-compliant partner, you can afford to drag them back up for the irimi. And before you say it, people don't just straighten up if you do let the kaiten-nage off enough for them to 'fight back' allowing for the irimi - they struggle to pull out of it sideways, every time. Try it on someone who hasn't trained aiki. Go on, you won't break them, I promise!

Assuming from your explanation that every time you've kicked someone in the nuts they've doubled over and you've been able to irimi them as they come back up, I'd have to assume:

1) you've never/very rarely kicked someone in the nuts,
2) you've never done this in the dojo other than by simulation... 'OK, so now I kick you in the nuts, and you double over... OK, not like that, double over this way, then you stand up in this direction...'
3) you can't do kaiten-nage, or have never done a straight-through kaiten-nage on a resisting person

So, in answer to your question, the last time somebody did that to me was... eight years ago in a compliant dojo setting. Since then I've been testing out my aiki in live practice, and when somebody does anything resembling kaitenage on me and doesnt ram my head straight down into the mat, I double-leg them, or get them with an outside leg sweep, or hit them with what you may know as a sotogawa iriminage furi-uchikomi.

pretty standard stuff....

….Or you telling me that never has happened…

Now its my turn to roll my eyes

I think u are the NOOOB!

You're insulting me without answering my questions. Doesn't work!

same happens when you take a shot to the groin…..when you pop back up…

LOL, you've never popped anyone in the groin for real have you? Admit it. If you don't admit it, you'll look an ass for a long time: if you do you can just look an ass for a short time!

1) They don't usually just crumple immediately and loosely as your plaything.
2) If they do, they don't just happily stand back up again.
3) If they do, your best bet is a) on the street - to run/**** them up, or b) in training - apologize, or c) in the ring - hope the ref hasn't seen it and continue beating them or take them down and submit them... iriminage would be a waste of energy.

Randori???? ….you don’t sound like your doing it….

Sounds like you ain't either... spending too much time bleeding and puking on the mat!

Or more accurately, sounds like you're doig typical aiki-fantasists' randori.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, still got a couple of questions for you, champ.

Do you practise your atemi on a makiwara, a heavy bag or (shock!) live opponent's with padding who are trying to hit you (in order of usefulness)? If you do, perhaps you can tell me the last time you 'stunned' somebody with a good clear shot to the face?...

Let's add, when was the last time you kicked somebody for real in the nuts, and what happened next?

D@mn... aikidoka fighting on the net - it's like watching two retards trying to **** a doorknob.

[Knifefighter]

There is another side of Aikido that apparently you haven’t seen and it evolves getting the opponent to “cooperate” through actual Atemi waza.. I.e. Setting up the Akido specific Nage, Katame, Shime and Kansetsu techniques…through real striking and kicking…

Nothing like getting struck in the face, as your stunned kicked in the groin, then spun into a Tsuki Irmi-Nage. One doesn’t get up from that…. That’s how Akido works against someone skilled. To say that it can’t or doesn’t happen is like saying no one gets hit in a fight….REDICULIOUS bull****to crap!……

Are you actually hitting each other in the face and groin full contact during randori? Because if you are not, basing your follow ups based on the "simulation" that you are doing it is just as McDojoish as any McDojo out there.

[Knifefighter]

YThere are people who can roll/spar uncooperatively with aikido with atemi and weally wuff thwows (with no protection other than cup/mouthguard - but then that's the same with kyokushin)... it looks like MMA (and of course most of them crosstrain - but again that's the same as anyone sensible in CMA these days) with a strong semblance to judo/jujutsu in MMA.

Mr. Punch-
Have you been to any aikido and or traditional JJJ schools that train full-resistance, free randori or are you just talking about individual practioners who have gone out to train and mix it up with others?

[Knifefighter]

same happens when you take a shot to the groin…..when you pop back up….

Methinks someone isn't really doing this and is just theorizing (incorrectly) about what is supposed to happen. As someone who has taken (ending up the the hospital once) and given a few groin shots for real, I can tell you the reaction is definitely not to pop back up.

[WinterPalm]

Are you actually hitting each other in the face and groin full contact during randori? Because if you are not, basing your follow ups based on the "simulation" that you are doing it is just as McDojoish as any McDojo out there.

I've been kicked in the groin very hard before. I've kicked guys in sparring very hard in the groin. The usual reaction is to cower away bent over. Assuming that, we can simulate that in training and go from there. It isn't rocket science. Most of the stuff that good teachers do that is considered deadly is not made up or guessed at...somebody has done these things or had them done to them and seen the outcome and used that as a training template. I have three examples, myself, and two training partners, of what happens when getting sacked hard. Each time it is basically the same but sometimes the guy falls over.

[Knifefighter]

I've been kicked in the groin very hard before. I've kicked guys in sparring very hard in the groin. The usual reaction is to cower away bent over. Assuming that, we can simulate that in training and go from there. It isn't rocket science. Most of the stuff that good teachers do that is considered deadly is not made up or guessed at...somebody has done these things or had them done to them and seen the outcome and used that as a training template. I have three examples, myself, and two training partners, of what happens when getting sacked hard. Each time it is basically the same but sometimes the guy falls over.

I think we have already that what you consider effective training and what I consider effective training are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch-
Have you been to any aikido and or traditional JJJ schools that train full-resistance, free randori or are you just talking about individual practioners who have gone out to train and mix it up with others?

No I haven't.

I have met pockets of people from some dojo who practise all out in free spaces. Plus some of the guys in MMA schools are basically rolling using JJJ.

My 'traditional' koryu school (offshoot of daitoryu) do full contact sparring with pads, gloves etc.