The DEATH TOUCH

[PaiLumDreamer]

What exactly are meridians in the modern day medical sense? I have very limited knowledge on this stuff, and I have not done much research. Only repeating things I remember reading/hearing.




Maybe the people who were finger-brushed were prone to bruising?

[Water Dragon]

What exactly are meridians in the modern day medical sense? I have very limited knowledge on this stuff, and I have not done much research. Only repeating things I remember reading/hearing.

There's no western correlation. Meridians and qi flow are a distinct entity that does not exist in western medicine.

[xcakid]

You know, I suspect the delayed "Death Touch" Is just when guys die later from internal injuries that cannot be seen from the outside.

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean you can hit someone hard enough break a rib and have it puncture an organ and just bleed out. All the Jow and herbal poultice back in the day ain't gonna fix it.

However, I have been shown pressure point strikes that worked on me. Prof Nick Cerios for one. I was his punching dummy for a demo and man I tell ya. My arms were numb on a few of the strikes he demonstrated.

[jdhowland]

The traditional jing-luo (meridian) system does not correspond to anything in modern anatomy-physiology. It is a cultural construct that satisfies expectations of how things are supposed to work within a standard cosmology. While not scientific in a modern sense, it does act as a system for organizing empirical knowledge. In other words, it may now be viewed as a less than optimum format for explaining perfectly good observations. Many people have tried to learn TCM and recreate dim mak systems based on accupoint, meridian and 5-element theories. My sifu is a professional accupunturist (learned from white crane master Ng Siu Jung). He warned that this simplistic application switch does not work. After all, there are also deep points that may be affected by a strike that are not accessible to needles. It's like going on a bombing mission using the wrong charts. In training I have been floored by a slap to my shoulder (and I was dumb enough to get up and ask to have it repeated). I have experienced "sealing the breath" when my sifu's son placed his thumbs under my ribs. I have taught and experienced "white outs" or mild KO's that stimulate the optic nerve many times. I have performed knockouts using peck cheui to the cubital fossa (CLF does this a lot)--the effect is unexpected but does that make it dim mak? Sure, it does. But a "death touch"--no way. I explain it by the mechanical effect it has on the fascia leading to the cervical plexus. A generation or two back it might have been explained using jing-luo concepts. One more point and I promise I'll shut up. Don't trust reflex charts if you want to develop your own system. Reflexes are statistical events that don't work the same on everyone and they can be be turned off in certain conditions. The modern tendency is to avoid speaking of reflexes as if they are anatomical constructs and to think in terms of synergistic relationships.
Peace, everyone.

[Shaolinlueb]

Maybe the people who were finger-brushed were prone to bruising?

he isnt prone to bruising at all.

[Dragonzbane76]

Dim Mak.... sigh...drawn out and long.

Isn't that something you wipe you butt with...???


Serious....

Myth... bull crap.... doesn't work like people think it does.

[Becca]

Very nicely put. But it reads better with the paragrphs deliniated, me thinks...

The traditional jing-luo (meridian) system does not correspond to anything in modern anatomy-physiology. It is a cultural construct that satisfies expectations of how things are supposed to work within a standard cosmology. While not scientific in a modern sense, it does act as a system for organizing empirical knowledge. In other words, it may now be viewed as a less than optimum format for explaining perfectly good observations.

Many people have tried to learn TCM and recreate dim mak systems based on accupoint, meridian and 5-element theories. My sifu is a professional accupunturist (learned from white crane master Ng Siu Jung). He warned that this simplistic application switch does not work. After all, there are also deep points that may be affected by a strike that are not accessible to needles. It's like going on a bombing mission using the wrong charts.

In training I have been floored by a slap to my shoulder (and I was dumb enough to get up and ask to have it repeated). I have experienced "sealing the breath" when my sifu's son placed his thumbs under my ribs. I have taught and experienced "white outs" or mild KO's that stimulate the optic nerve many times. I have performed knockouts using peck cheui to the cubital fossa (CLF does this a lot)--the effect is unexpected but does that make it dim mak?

Sure, it does. But a "death touch"--no way. I explain it by the mechanical effect it has on the fascia leading to the cervical plexus. A generation or two back it might have been explained using jing-luo concepts.

One more point and I promise I'll shut up. Don't trust reflex charts if you want to develop your own system. Reflexes are statistical events that don't work the same on everyone and they can be be turned off in certain conditions. The modern tendency is to avoid speaking of reflexes as if they are anatomical constructs and to think in terms of synergistic relationships.
Peace, everyone.

[PangQuan]

Very nicely put.

+1

i am the ninja letters you should not be seeing.

[SanSoo Student]

Wasn't there a guy called dimmakmaster around here some time ago?

[brothernumber9]

dimmakseminar

[Goldenmane]

The traditional jing-luo (meridian) system does not correspond to anything in modern anatomy-physiology. It is a cultural construct that satisfies expectations of how things are supposed to work within a standard cosmology. While not scientific in a modern sense, it does act as a system for organizing empirical knowledge. In other words, it may now be viewed as a less than optimum format for explaining perfectly good observations.

That's probably the best I've ever seen that put.

I've been arguing that point for years, but never managed to get it across so succinctly.

[Edit 2: same basic argument goes for "qi"]

[jdhowland]

[Edit 2: same basic argument goes for "qi"]

Good point!

[RonH]

My question is: Do strikes actually exist that will cause delayed/immediate death? (Nerve strikes on the torso, etc, in a certain order. I understand people can die from being hit too hard/vital organs/whatever - I'm talking specifically about Dim Mak/Nerve related striking methods.)

When using the energetic variant of dim mak, any point on the body can be used.

Something I realized: Someone shows you a bunch of moves that DO work and that produce pretty painful effects, and then they say "Well, these will kill someone, so don't actually do them on anyone!" Because we have seen something that works, and then are told this is the same ****, we would assume it would also work and therefore a series of moves that has never been tested is formed into this myth of a death touch.

You're also told not to do certain physical moves against someone unless you want to seriously hurt/kill them. Do you go around testing to see if they will be hurt or killed if you do them?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dim Mak points work, to what extent they do in combat is still up for debate.

I have always viewed Dim Mak as something along the lines of "aim big, miss big, aim small, miss small", maybe its the Sniper in me

I don't think that anyone doubts the effect of a well placed strike on the temple, and there have been a few deaths from strikes to the chest, BUT, the problem is doing them under LESS than ideal circumstances such as when someone is trying to rip you a new arse hole.

Boxing is full of "dim mak" strikes, so is MT and even BJJ has "cavity presses", they just call them chokes

There is a fine line that is walked between the reality and the BS of Dim Mak, the good part is that common sense can keep the BS of your shoes.

[David Jamieson]

I think the problem exists mainly in westerners failure to understand taht wuxia novels are the equivalent of superhero comic books.

so delayed death touch is as real as shooting webs out your wrists afetr being bitten by either radioactive or genetically manipulated spiders.

just saying.

now, having said that, you already know the effects of some types of point strikes by your own description of being wobbled, but then, some people wobble easily and others have higher capacities for pain, so there is nothing definitive on teh subject and there is tons of bullsquat about it.

using common sense, the equation is not hard to surmise.