The Only Truly Authentic Shaolin System

[GeneChing]

We've discussed Bodhidharma many times before. Here's one relevant thread. Here's another.

[Wildwoo]

For you to say that there is Choy Lay Fut in the ten forms is totally wrong. One of Kuo Yu Chang's students, Lung Tse Chung, learned some Choy Lay Fut from Tam Sam because Kuo and Sam swapped students. But Yim Shan Wu's Northern Shaolin was the closest to the way Kuo Yu Chang taught it, and there's was no Choy Lay Fut added to it.

I think there is a bit of Choy Lat Fut in Chun Sam #4 (comet chases moon) and historically this may have been added from Ku's interaction with Tan Sam. I have had conversation with several of the old BSL masters about this. There is no real written history of Bak Siu Lum. Oral transmissions have descended through the various lineages and a few people have attempted to document these transmissions but the tale grows with the telling. I have spoken to my teacher about it and he loves the lore but really does not care about that sort of thing. I have talked to my Si Gung who has talked to his teacher whom learned from Yim Shang Mo. I have spoken to Master Lung Kai Ming whose father learned from Ku as well as another Master in Guanzho and everyone has a slightly different slant on what, when, where and how the great master learned and taught, the tale grows with the telling. From my personal research
( I am a dedicated disciple of BSL) Our Great Grand Master legendarily learned all his martial arts during his younger years traveling. Not during the years that he taught at Nanjing. He mastered Tan Tui, Sung Mountain Shaolim, Cha kuen, Tai Chi and Hsing Yi. His teaching curriculum included the 10 forms that he formulated as well as other techniques from all the other styles and weaponry that make up what we call the 'Northern Shaolim' style.

I respect Siu Lum Fighter's attempts to shed light on this amazing style I can see that he is both dedicated and an enthusiastic closed door disciple of the style. With all do respect my senior uncle to name a thread on a martial art forum "The Only Truely Authentic Shaolin System" lends it's self to a combative situation and dose not do any real good for the system at large. Sal even though you are a well read researcher and published author you are an outsider. You do not practice the system therefore you have no access to the essences of transmission. By this I mean to learn a style of martial art it must be transmitted through your senses. You must see it, hear what is said in direction and corrections and you must feel it in application and the physical essence of just being there year after year. I think you may want to think about that while you go on about your publishing accolades.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by Wildwoo
( I am a dedicated disciple of BSL) Our Great Grand Master legendarily learned all his martial arts during his younger years traveling. Not during the years that he taught at Nanjing. His teaching curriculum included the 10 forms that he formulated as well as other techniques from all the other styles and weaponry that make up what we call the 'Northern Shaolim' style.

My Si Hing, who studied with Wong Jack Man (who was one of Yim Shang Mo's prized students) will tell you differently. From his research and conversations, he's gathered that Kuo learned the ten sets of Northern Shaolin, flying knives, flying darts, Raise Blocking Spear, Twenty-Four Technique Spear, Plum Blossom Double Sabers, the breathing techniques of Ch'i-Kung, the eighteen weapons, and the iron palm all under Master Yim Chi Wen's tutelage. He also relearned the ten rows of Tan T'ui. These sets (especially the weapons sets) have a distinctly northern flavor to them (they don't wield a spear the same way in the south).
Now, just how much Master Kuo embellished the sets is up for debate since, he did learn a llittle bit of Choy Lay Fut when he opened the Kwangchou Martial Arts School. But it's been said that this was mainly just to keep up with the local styles and because of his friendship with Tan San. I just can't see Master Kuo modifying his Northern Shaolin like that. Did Tan San modify his Choy Lay Fut with Northern Shaolin? There are similarities just by their very nature, but I still see major differences in the ways these styles look and feel.

With all do respect my senior uncle to name a thread on a martial art forum "The Only Truely Authentic Shaolin System" lends it's self to a combative situation and dose not do any real good for the system at large.

Ya, you're right. I actually regret naming this thread what I did. I was somewhat impulsive because I felt so strongly about this issue. I was just so sick of seeing this "market-driven" approach when it comes to Shaolin Temple and the supposedly authentic Shaolin Martial Arts that are being propagated there. When I was younger I thought it was cool but now I think it's just gotten totally out of hand. I have to admit also that I have no real love for the government in China right now. It's true that all governments around the world have corruption and unfortunate policies. But I feel especially appalled at how they've treated the Falun Dafa practitioners. For Shaolin Temple to say absolutely nothing on this issue shows that they're not completely autonomous. Shaolin martial arts shouldn't only be about kung fu and the abilities that one can achieve. It should include defending the poor hapless folks who can't defend themselves and ridding the world of wrongdoing and evil.

[Wildwoo]

I have heard similar arguments but as I said earlier related to the oral history, it is all hearsay.
I do however respect your humility and salute your dedication to our system.

I'm Woo

My Si Hing, who studied with Wong Jack Man (who was one of Yim Shang Mo's prized students) will tell you differently. From his research and conversations, he's gathered that Kuo learned the ten sets of Northern Shaolin, flying knives, flying darts, Raise Blocking Spear, Twenty-Four Technique Spear, Plum Blossom Double Sabers, the breathing techniques of Ch'i-Kung, the eighteen weapons, and the iron palm all under Master Yim Chi Wen's tutelage. He also relearned the ten rows of Tan T'ui. These sets (especially the weapons sets) have a distinctly northern flavor to them (they don't wield a spear the same way in the south).
Now, just how much Master Kuo embellished the sets is up for debate since, he did learn a llittle bit of Choy Lay Fut when he opened the Kwangchou Martial Arts School. But it's been said that this was mainly just to keep up with the local styles and because of his friendship with Tan San. I just can't see Master Kuo modifying his Northern Shaolin like that. Did Tan San modify his Choy Lay Fut with Northern Shaolin? There are similarities just by their very nature, but I still see major differences in the ways these styles look and feel.

Ya, you're right. I actually regret naming this thread what I did. I was somewhat impulsive because I felt so strongly about this issue. I was just so sick of seeing this "market-driven" approach when it comes to Shaolin Temple and the supposedly authentic Shaolin Martial Arts that are being propagated there. When I was younger I thought it was cool but now I think it's just gotten totally out of hand. I have to admit also that I have no real love for the government in China right now. It's true that all governments around the world have corruption and unfortunate policies. But I feel especially appalled at how they've treated the Falun Dafa practitioners. For Shaolin Temple to say absolutely nothing on this issue shows that they're not completely autonomous. Shaolin martial arts shouldn't only be about kung fu and the abilities that one can achieve. It should include defending the poor hapless folks who can't defend themselves and ridding the world of wrongdoing and evil.

[Shaolindynasty]

Did Tan San modify his Choy Lay Fut with Northern Shaolin?

yes he did

For Shaolin Temple to say absolutely nothing on this issue shows that they're not completely autonomous

or maybe they don't have freedom of speech.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Still, if any Choy Lay Fut was added to Bak Siu Lum, it's negligible. For some people to say that the ten forms are some amalgamation of different Long Fist Styles and Choy Lay Fut is totally not right. They have a distinctly northern flavor and there's a solid history going back to at least the late 1700's after they supposedly left the temple. The style was taught and practiced in Hopei Province and Kiangsu Province. There's a lineage going way back from Kuo Yu Chang's teacher, Yim Chi Wen. And the fact that they were always formulated into 10 sets lends credibility to them, indeed, possibly being the original sets that the monks at Song Shan were doing, however embellished upon throughout the ages. All of this evidence doesn't seem as credible, of course, since the Communists went frolicking about the countryside burning temples, schools, and libraries. What was that? "Out with the old, in with the new!!". Mao would go on to say, "to read too many books is harmful". It's a wonder any real kung fu survived in the country.

Northern Shaolin is real kung fu and every move in the sets handed down from Kuo Yu Chang has an application. If there's any extra "flair" with the way some of the moves are performed, it's because some Northern practitioners posed as Opera performers in order to hide from the Qin way back in 1700 and 1800's. Most wushu, however, seems like it's about 40%-50% flair. Of course, the government would tell you they did "research" and they "standardized" all of the Classical arts. It was all marketing and now the big bucks are rolling in. It's been like a d@mn Shaolin gold rush since then. The real, "unfortunate," history of Chinese martial arts might as well not exist. There's new history now.

[r.(shaolin)]

Communists went frolicking about the countryside burning temples, schools, and libraries. What was that? "Out with the old, in with the new!!". Mao would go on to say, "to read too many books is harmful". It's a wonder any real kung fu survived in the country. . . . . Of course, the government would tell you they did "research" and they "standardized" . . . It was all marketing and now the big bucks are rolling in. It's been like a d@mn Shaolin gold rush since then. The real, "unfortunate," history of Chinese martial arts might as well not exist. There's new history now.

I have to agree with you. No disrespect intended to anyone at Shaolin today, but one needs to call a 'spade a spade'. Most of the monks at Shaolin today were born after 1965, or were just little kids and pre-teens during this time, knew very little about Shaolin before 1980. Nor did they know about the consequences of the "Big Four Cleanups" by the Communists a generation before them, which effectively destroyed the old traditional lineages. Beginning in early 1965 outsider, 'Mao Zedong Thought Counselor Corps' came in to take over total control (and it was total control) of entire village affairs in the small towns and country side in Henan. The village and rural population in Henan province were one of the most vigorously, thoroughly and effectively targeted by what was called 'Anti-superstition Drive'. The expressed objective of this effort was the total eradication of traditional institutions and customs. This drive began before the even more draconian 1966 'cultural revolution'. Again it was the small villages and towns in the countryside that were targeted. The claim that the 'old' Shaolin was being practiced in tact, as a extensive and complete system, secretly during this time, is simply ridiculous.
r.

[Royal Dragon]

The claim that the 'old' Shaolin was being practiced in tact, as a extensive and complete system, secretly during this time, is simply ridiculous.

Reply]
No, but surely various pockets of it survived, Cannon fist in this family, Tai Tzu in that family, Tong Bei in another, and Louhan in another still. Maybe sets were lost over time, especially the really old Shaolin, but the core essence of the styles survived and so did the key sets themselves.

In a rural area, they would not have been able to police every single farm, every single family. The people would have clamed up out of fear and they would have had no way to know who all the Kung Fu masters were. Heck, even today with all the power of a modern military belonging to the greatest country there is, we can't find one guy in a cave...how could they have found all the Masters back then?

Due to the fact that they were trained, skilled and had a combat oriented mind, it makes more sense that THEY survived, and many innocents got killed instead. At least they would know when to hide.

[r.(shaolin)]

but surely various pockets of it survived, Cannon fist in this family, Tai Tzu in that family, Tong Bei in another, and Louhan in another still. Maybe sets were lost over time, especially the really old Shaolin, but the core essence of the styles survived and so did the key sets themselves.;

Agreed. Yes it is clearly obvious that some traditional martial arts survived.

However, anyone who wants to believe speculations that people busied themselves at night secretly practicing and teaching martial arts needs to do a bit of research.
Here are a couple of books I would recommend that paint a more sobering and realistic picture. Both these books present what really happened and are consistent with
what a friend of mine, who escaped to Hong Kong in mid 70's, experienced and how limited the training was under these conditions. In his case, his old teacher was caught teaching and had both his legs broken.

'Chen Village under Mao and Deng', by Chan, et. al.
This is a detailed account of a Chinese village during the Maoist revolution.
the other is:
'Red China Blues', by Jan Wong.
This is a first hand account by a Canadian ethnic Chinese who moved to China in 1972 and joined the Maoist revolution. She studied and worked in China for six years and participated in the "re-education" of rural villagers, through the Cultural Revolution and the period of the "Gang of Four." Her first hand experiences are totally consistent with the accounts found in, 'Chen Village under Mao and Deng' by Chan. Later, as a reporter for the Toronto Globe and Mail, she spent another six years in China, witnessing the Tiananmen massacre, interviewing important dissidents such as Wei Jingsheng and Ren Wanding, and the peasant riots in rural areas.

r.

[mkriii]

so....why do you believe your lineage and not someone elses lineage?
anyone can easily claim they learn from blah blah in the year yada yada and learn from who who doing this time..blah blah blah
who cares
NO ONE WILL EVER BE ABLE TO PROVE WHICH IS THE AUTHENTHIC STYLE OF THE ORIGINAL AND FIRST SHAOLIN
these debates are stupid and pointless.
china been corrupted so many time, and chinese people lie and scam a lot, you never know who to beleive, sad but true.

and here we go again with the new shaolin being all wushu stuff, mang you people need to go behind the scene and actually see that there is tradtional inside and only mostly wushu is performed BECAUSE THAT WHAT CATCHES THE "GENERAL" AUDIENCE ATTENTION and that wat pays and make the money...........

Thats a pretty bold (and brave) statement to make saying that Chinese people lie and scam. Are you sure that all Chinese people do this? Do Americans lie and scam? Who lies and scams more? Maybe you should think about that statement a little bit more carefully.

[r.(shaolin)]

I have 3 versions of his Shaolin Encyclopedia, the original 2 volume set, the expanded 4 volume set, and the revised with photos of 90% of the forms volumes.

There are many 2 person sets in the expanded edition I have across each book in the set, I don't see "very few" at all.

Hi Sal,
How many 2 man set are you talking about? According to what has been passed on by the older generations in my lineage, the approximate ratio of contact sets to single sets was 1:3. In this regard, if Shaolin claims 300 sets, 75+ of them would be contact sets. In other words a great deal of the training at Shaolin was contact sets and two person drill training. This is, in part, evidenced by the Qing Dynasty mural at Shaolin. Although I've seen good traditional applications and two person drills done, the few contact sets I've seen done by monks, have been generally 'modern' with tactics that are mostly unpractical – something uncharacteristic of old Shaolin.

r.

[Shaolindynasty]

For some people to say that the ten forms are some amalgamation of different Long Fist Styles and Choy Lay Fut is totally not right

I agree but To many "shaolin" exponents are to attached to the idea of "orginal forms" and "preserving" them. Very un-buddhist thinking

[David Jamieson]

the ten forms of bei shaolin are an amalgamation. My understanding is that the current sijo of bei shaolin/bak sil lum is Ku yu-cheong who died in 1952.

he definitely, by all accounts was a true and dedicated kungfu practitioner and master to many hundreds if not thousands of students. His grand-students live and practice and teach today, most sharing either in the fact that they studied with one of Master Ku's disciples such as Yim Shang Mo or Ma King Fung (sp?) or others. It was only the 1950's when Mater Ku was executed for his being a member of the KMT and an anti communist soldier, an officer I believe.

Having said that, we know that the bsl sets from the Tam Sam lineage of Buk Sing CLF came from Master Ku, we know that living and recently passed masters were all connected through the lines that start at Master Ku.

so, is it really fair to say that BSL now is the same as it was when the monk Gan brought a style of northern longfist out of the temple and started to spread it around? I don't think it is fair to say that and to make this remark is to take away from all the fabulous and totally effective shaolin martial arts taht are out there in fairly unadulterated forms.

with each practitioner, a style goes through changes. Some big, some subtle, but ultimately it is unavoidable.

[Shaolindynasty]

It was only the 1950's when Mater Ku was executed for his being a member of the KMT and an anti communist soldier, an officer I believe

I thought he died due to an illness?

[David Jamieson]

I thought he died due to an illness?

I've heard executed by maoists. Bullets.