Realistic tai chi...

[Mulong]

Honestly, that video clip can't be billed as taiji tuishou per se, because it was a display of basic shuai skills from both individuals; nothing out of the norm, and there was no tuishou shown at all.

[Knifefighter]

Honestly, that video clip can't be billed as taiji tuishou per se, because it was a display of basic shuai skills from both individuals; nothing out of the norm, and there was no tuishou shown at all.

Could you point us to a clip of something that shows this supposed high level of skill?

[Mulong]

There are some VCD that show good taiji fighting principles from a Chenshi taijiquan and Yangshi taijiquan point of view; however, there are most likely not on Youtube.

Actually, picked a very rare one of Chen, Xiaowang.

[Knifefighter]

There are some VCD that show good taiji fighting principles from a Chenshi taijiquan and Yangshi taijiquan point of view; however, there are most likely not on Youtube.

Actually, picked a very rare one of Chen, Xiaowang.

Maybe you could download one for us to see.

[Christopher M]

Honestly, that video clip can't be billed as taiji tuishou per se, because it was a display of basic shuai skills from both individuals; nothing out of the norm, and there was no tuishou shown at all.

The original clip? I didn't think it was billed as "taiji tuishou per se", but rather simply as shuai, which, as you say, is what it was.

Could you point us to a clip of something that shows this supposed high level of skill?

Well, the difference between tuishou and shuai isn't that one is high and the other is low level. Although maybe that was the implication after all...

[Christopher M]

Of course: we shouldn't expect things which aren't tuishou to look like tuishou.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It looked like Push Hands to me. The object is to learn to feel you opponents balance, and then when you can lead them to the opportune moment, take thier center of balance away from them (or lead them into giving it up), and then throw them effortlessly...because your opponent did the work for you.

That is pretty much what we see in those clips. The guy in blue seems to ONLY be issuing power once he has led his opponent to a state of unbalance, his structure and mechanics are good, so that is a good example of push hands.

That is the ultimate goal of taiji....keep you opponent unbalanced so they are never on solid enough grounds to offer a real attack.

Push hands teaches you to feel thier structure, and to use the various techniques in the form, at the proper time to guide them out of a state of balance.

It also teaches you to counter and redirect incoming forces when an opponent tries to do the same to you.

You are not trying to fight *against* a *resisting* opponent, you are trying to redirect the attackers force so you don't have to deal with it directly, and in such a way that the opponent gives up his balance...even if for the briefest second, so we can apply force of our own at a point when we get the most results, from the least effort.

Taiji Quan, when done right, should look like you did nothing at all..if ur good.

[Fu-Pow]

You are not trying to fight *against* a *resisting* opponent, you are trying to redirect the attackers force so you don't have to deal with it directly, and in such a way that the opponent gives up his balance...even if for the briefest second, so we can apply force of our own at a point when we get the most results, from the least effort.

Taiji Quan, when done right, should look like you did nothing at all..if ur good.

Beautifully put RD.

[stricker]

have you read what tim cartmell (bjj black belt and long time taiji dude) has to say about push hands? i cant remember where but i read him saying he thought it was basically wrestling sparring but they got to the point of just taking the balance etc and saying 'i got you' without actually finishing the takedown or whatever. then it turned into a game and the wrestling bit got lost etc...

also, i saw a think on the tv last night called Last Man Standing, they had clips of jungle wrestling in south america and then mongolian wrestling, and believe it or not, different rules etc, but they were all wrestling and lo and behold, it all looked like wrestling... funny that

[Christopher M]

It looked like Push Hands to me. The object is to learn to feel you opponents balance, and then when you can lead them to the opportune moment, take thier center of balance away from them (or lead them into giving it up), and then throw them effortlessly...because your opponent did the work for you.

That is pretty much what we see in those clips.

On this basis, judo randori is pushhands too.

On the other hand, maybe pushhands isn't any practice where you try to offbalance your opponent, but rather has something to do with the distinctive nature of taijiquan -- like, say, the systematic training of zhan, nian, lian, and sui in the context of peng, lu, ji, and an?

Taiji Quan, when done right, should look like you did nothing at all..if ur good.

Similarly, because weight lifting makes you stronger, if you weight lift right, you should be able to overpower everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And because running makes you faster, you should be able to get away from everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And when Royce Gracie has to make an effort to get position or a submission, it's just evidence that he's not doing BJJ right.

Or maybe these are all overwhelmingly silly ways to understand the training of physical skills.

For viewing pleasure: More Taiji clinch work NOT in a tuishou format, Tuishou with Shuai.

[Fu-Pow]

On this basis, judo randori is pushhands too.

On the other hand, maybe pushhands isn't any practice where you try to offbalance your opponent, but rather has something to do with the distinctive nature of taijiquan -- like, say, the systematic training of zhan, nian, lian, and sui in the context of peng, lu, ji, and an?

He's trying to put into a context that a non-taiji player can understand.

Similarly, because weight lifting makes you stronger, if you weight lift right, you should be able to overpower everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And because running makes you faster, you should be able to get away from everyone you meet without it looking like you did anything. And when Royce Gracie has to make an effort to get position or a submission, it's just evidence that he's not doing BJJ right.

Taiji, done correctly doesn't look like "overpowering" anyone.

Or maybe these are all overwhelmingly silly ways to understand the training of physical skills.

You haven't demonstrated that.

For viewing pleasure: More Taiji clinch work NOT in a tuishou format, Tuishou with Shuai.

Nice clips. However, knifefighter won't buy it because its not done under sparring conditions.

[Knifefighter]

Nice clips. However, knifefighter won't buy it because its not done under sparring conditions.

The second clip was complete B.S. and not the least bit realistic.

The first one was more realistic and indicative of a grappler who has a much better understanding of control points than his opponents.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taiji is a principle based system, as long as the principles are there, its Taiji, wither it be more grappling oriented like those clips or more strike oriented like the stuff of CC Chen in New York.

[shrub]

Don't forget the Tai Chi symbol is made up of half Yin and half Yang. You have to have strength to compliment the soft.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Yes, but strength is only applied after you have lead your opponent to a state of unbalance.