Hong Quan anyone?

[Shaolin Master]

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Question, is the Ming Tai Tzuu the same as the Southern Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan seen from masters like Liao Wu Chang and yourself?

Is Ming Tai Tzu related to southern mantis, or is it a Long Fist style like the Zhao, Kuang Yin stuff?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question, is the Ming Tai Tzuu the same as the Southern Fuzian Tai Tzu Quan seen from masters like Liao Wu Chang and yourself?

Is Ming Tai Tzu related to southern mantis, or is it a Long Fist style like the Zhao, Kuang Yin stuff?

Careful not to compare apple and oranges.

Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan, was named after the Hong reign of the first Ming Emperor Zhu, is it is not what he practiced but rather, what the military practiced and was named so in his honor.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ming Taizuquan is a little bit rare nowadays.....basically Ming Taizu (Zu Yuanzhang) was often referred to as Hong Wu (i.e. 洪 (brave) not 红 (red) ). Thus the style had small and large Hong quan ....and is also referred to as Taizuhongquan .....太祖洪拳.... The style is very simple in comparison the Taizumen (Song Taizu derived art)....with only a handful of sets and direct practical methods.

Anyways.....there are way too many 'Hong' styles in Chinese martial arts.....

Regards
Wu Chanlong

I really appreciate your historical information, thanks for all the great info on the various Hong Quan styles, I has helped clarify things for me.
THANKS!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Again, later in my http://www.authenticshaolin.com site I will place information regarding Shandong Shaolin. This style is derive from the old Fuyu Shaolin and is the same style of Gu Ruzhang (i.e. Northern Shaolin) and others in Shandong and Jiangsu provinces (though movements and forms change with time the methodology all similar). This style was practiced by many of the Nanjing Guoshu Assoc. (as was Chaquan, Liuhequan etc)....and the resultant re-developed forms including the Taizuquan's etc had influence from that style (which Taiwan Li Maoching Yang Jwing Ming etc teach as Shaolin Longfist...etc)

The other Style known as Shandong Meihuaquan is yet different again and it influenced the Hao Family Praying Mantis ....sets such as Yuejiachui, xiaohuyan, heihuquan etc......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

Fu YU Shaolin? From Yuan Dynasty?
So that would be the Kan Jia Quan shaolin style, which indeed was the base for which the Northern Shaolin style (hate that name, so easy to get confused with just northern shaoin in general) was created from.

Why does your website say Fu Yu is from the song dynasty, when everything known about Fu Yu is from the Yuan dynasty (which was when Kan Jia Quan was developed)
and from Shi De Gen, Shi De Gian, and all the other lineages say that Fu JU, not Fu YU is from the Song dynasty.

Fu Yu and Fu JU are not the same people, I know I have harped on this too many times, but they aren't.

Fu Yu is well documented as being from the Yuan Dynasty.

Fu JU is the one that called the 18 masters in the Song dynasty.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Shaolin Master:

Did you learn the Rou Quan sets from the Liu family?

If so, I have some questions.

[Shaolin Master]

Sal,

still many typos throughout my sites....I never edit....Fu Ju Song of the 18 .....etc..

Anways yes Kanjiaquan (if you read chinese,....my front page says...'Shandong Yang Xiushan Shaolin Kanjiaquan)....

Nope I did not learn the shaolin rouquan that you would be querying...

Regards
Wu Chanlong

[Royal Dragon]

Shaolin Master,
I have a question on this form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

I know it came from the nanjing Kuosho academy. I also know that this is only half the set. What I want to know is if it was created at the nanjing Kuosho? Or if it is a set from an older Tai Tzu tradition that was brought in from the outside and taught there?

Also, is this set the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan? or is your set by that name different?

And lastly, if this is an older set originating from Shandong, do you know of any other lines that do it, and how do they compare to the nanjing version?

[MasterKiller]

Shaolin Master,
I have a question on this form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

I know it came from the nanjing Kuosho academy. I also know that this is only half the set. What I want to know is if it was created at the nanjing Kuosho? Or if it is a set from an older Tai Tzu tradition that was brought in from the outside and taught there?

Also, is this set the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan? or is your set by that name different?

And lastly, if this is an older set originating from Shandong, do you know of any other lines that do it, and how do they compare to the nanjing version?

That set looks a lot like Er Lu Maifu.

[Shaolin Master]

All these are also the same Nanjing Guoshu Taizu Changquan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

Han Qingtang (who taught Li Mao Ching who Taught Yang Jwing Ming) was from Shandong and his sets had elements from Shandong arts as well even though he spent a lot of time at the Nanjing Zhongyang Guoshu Guan. Like most teachers (and to some degree even students) of the institute they all had various backgrounds.

The sets include Liuhequan, Lianbuquan, Gongliquan, Tantui, Maifu (1,2 and 5), Shizitang, si lu chaquan, sanlupaoquan, Taizuchangquan, Kaoquan, Xiaohuyan, Fanche, Silubenda, yanqingquan, heihuquan, tanglangshou, luohanquan, jingangquan etc..

As one can see many were borrowed from the Chaquan, Yanqing (mizong) quan, tanglang and Taizu Changquan etc...(Shandong/Hebei) styles. So yes they do have similarities but so it possibly was a set and then modified a little (like most of the Nanjing sets or teachers thereof).

The Shandong variants have a different power method, Taiwan somehow tightened the movements up (not too bad seems purposeful).......

Kind Regards
Wu Chanlong

[r.(shaolin)]

On the subject of Ming Dynasty founder, Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, and the 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

This is a complex story but I hope this can give a bit of context to this discussion. The origin of the of the character 'red' in the northern Hong Quan (Fist) needs to be placed in context of sectarian rebels (Red Turban Army - Hong Jin Jun; Chin.: 紅巾軍) during the late Yuan (1279-1368) and Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). However the symbolism of 'Red' comes from the much earlier Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220). The name "Hong jin jun," (Red Turban army) was also used during the Jurchen conquests in 1127 during the fall of the northern Song.

The ancient Han Dynasty is commonly considered by Chinese to be one of the greatest periods their history. At one point during the Han Dynasty, Wang Mang, a "usurper" seized the throne. The Han dynasty was restored with the help of a grass roots group calling itself the Red Eyebrows, "Hong Chi Mei". This event became legendary, and the symbolic reason for the use of "red" by subsequent groups fighting against 'alien' rule.

The intentions of the 12 century rebellious military leaders of the northern Red Turban (Hong Jin - 紅巾) in the mid Yuan Dynasty (1300's) movement was "restoring of the "Song" dynasty - which was part of their ideology. They were instrumental in spreading both Hong Quan and its connection to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤, (Emperor Taizu- the founder of the Song Dynasty). During this last half of the Yuan Dynasty, there was an militarization of the Chinese population that has few precedents. The center of this militarization was Red Turban sectarian rebels who championed a restoration of the Song Dynasty. During the first part of his career Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 – the future founder of the Ming Dynasty – was a rising leader of the rebels who at first supported this idea for political and ideological reasons. The massive scale and significance of these movements seems to be escaping most of the forum discussion. You can say that Hong Quan is really a range of related styles connected to the rebellious military, polarized by Zhu Yuanzhang, and Red Turban commanders. This why most, if not all of the northern Hong Quan (Red Fist-紅拳) styles give Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song Dynasty credit for Hong Quan 紅拳 styles. Throughout these struggles, Shaolin used the characters 洪拳 for Hong Quan (at least the tradition I practice) and it also attributes its invention to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song dynasty (more on that later). During the later part of the Yuan dynasty 1348 AD to 1353 AD, many groups organized throughout the country for the sole purpose of fostering rebellion against the alien Yuan.

There were two independent groups of Hong insurgents; the northern Hong headed by Zhao Kuangyin and the southern (or western) branch headed by Chen Youliang. Both Red Turban (Hong Jin Jun - 紅巾軍), helped militarize the population against the Yuan Dynasty. Their styles of Hong Qaan thus spread widelyand diversely in the northern China plain as well as in the south. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 eventually inherited the leadership of all the northern Red Turbans, and then after defeating Chen Youliang (the southern leader of the Hong), Zhu Yangzhang relocated himself in lower Yangzi region for strategic reasons. Once he gained control, he slowly disassociated himself from the Red Turbans and the Song dynasty. This helps to account for why northern Hong (Red) Quan still maintains the Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 / Song connection but the south generally does not.

The scale of this militarization was massive and wide spread, which why it is not possible to give any one person credit for any Hong system, let alone a particular set. Hong Quan (both northern and southern) also spread greatly during the middle and late part of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) as part of the Taiping Rebellion. This was during the time of Hong Xiuquan (Chin.: 洪秀全; a Hakka Chinese who led the Taiping Rebellion..

Han military insurgents practiced Hong Quan in preparations for uprising against the Manchu occupation during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The red color symbolized the Han revolutionaries against the Manchu, as it had centuries before in the late Song period, as well as in the late Yuan period.

Oral and recorded legend gives Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) original credit for creating Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what is passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the contemporary versions of northern Hong probably happened during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military. As per my post concerning Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998); his teachers; Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪(1884-1981); Sun Yanbiao's teacher - General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環 (1862-1930); General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 (one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during the mid and late 1800's) all attributed Hong to Zhao Kuangyin of the Song dynasty. Note that unlike Shaolin these northern Hong Quan traditions use the character 紅 - red in Hong Quan. In the tradition of Shaolin that I practice the character hong 洪'vast' is used (some people translate this as 'flood' but the term is used to mean - expansive/vast) instead of 紅, 'red'. Why?

It is not because Shaolin Hong Quan was unrelated in either technique or history to other northern Hong Quan styles. Shaolin also attributes Hong Quan to Hong to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 of the Song Dynasty and technically it is similar to other northern Hong Quan systems. The use of 'vast' instead of 'red' had more to do with politics.

During this rebellious period the Yuan government was well aware of the "Hong" army and the meaning of Hong/red 紅. The Qing government as well as the Buddhist administrators were also very much aware of the involvement of some Buddhists groups who were spreading this sectarian rebellion under the name of "Hong 紅". For this reason Shaolin Si, being an Imperial monastery, had to distance itself from the Red Turbans by avoiding the term. Keep in mind as well, the Red Turban armies had also relied on pillaging to support their forces. At one point even Shaolin monks had to fight off Red Turban looters.

In summary Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, began his careers as a Red Turban leader, and in the end was its only leader. However his scholar advisers recommended he distance himself from this movement. In fact eventually even to mention that Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 had been a Red Turban leader became taboo. However because many of his officers and soldiers and people still were believes in the Red Turban ideology. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 adopted the rein name of Hongwu 洪武. Hongwu, means "Vast Military," which references the massive army of the people that put him into power (Also see note below). It also sounded like Hong 紅 'red', giving it a positive ring to the old guard. The use of "vast' and not 'red' for Hong Quan by Shaolin in its two sets; Xiao and Da Hong Quan 大洪拳 and 小洪拳, suggests to me that that these sets were absorbed there (or possibly renamed), sometime during the mid or late Yuan Dynasty.

r.

ps

There is also a subtle reference to 'red' in the word 'ming 明 as used in 'Ming Dynasty'. Ming is a split character made of sun日 and moon 月. The sun is always represented by red in China.

[mantis108]

On the subject of Ming founder Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 and 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

This is a complex story but I hope this can give a bit of context to this discussion. The origin of the of the character 'red' in the northern Hong Quan needs to be placed in context of sectarian rebels (Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun; Chin.: 紅巾軍) during the late Yuan and Ming Dynasty. However the symbolism of 'Red' comes from the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220).

As far as I am aware Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun (紅巾軍) was white lotus (白蓮教) militia. Their leader during the late Yuan and early Ming was Han Shantong (韓山童).
Han Shantong raised people's attention or rather hope by saying that they would return to Song reign. But they actually wanted the country for themselves. Han Shantong crowned/ordained himself as Ming Wang (King of Brightness 明王), which is part of his spiritual-military movement slogan, in order to legitimize his would be future role as the ruler of all China. He enticed Zhu Yuanzhang by giving him the title the King of Wu (吳王). According to "official" record, Zhu Yuanzhang refused the title. This is the part in history that get interesting because there is a discrepency in official record and folklore. Some see that Zhu Yuanzhang took Ming as the designation of his dynasty is a prove that he's involved with the white lotus cult. But others suggested that since Zhu's power base is in the south, it could be that he used Ming to commerate that but he actually got control of China through his own doing more or less.

Mantis108

[Royal Dragon]

WOW, that is a lot of information to digest!!

2 questions still remain though. First, was this set...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHcfGCujcXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vjGMpTMGF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy0f4Ojz__o

...created at Nanjing? or imported TO Nanjing from Shandong? In other words, When and where was it created?

And specifically for Shaolin Master, does the aboved linked to set resemble the form called "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" from your system?

Also, either way, do you know the history of that perticular set (your system's taizu?)

[Royal Dragon]

One more thing, how does this fit into the picture?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3ty...elated&search=

Is it the second half of this form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4


Or is it a unique set in and of itself from the same system?

[r.(shaolin)]

As far as I am aware Red Turban's - Hong Jin Jun (紅巾軍) was white lotus (白蓮教) militia. Their leader during the late Yuan and early Ming was Han Shantong (韓山童).

Yes it is a complicated story.
Han Shantong of the White Lotus Society was captured and executed and Liu Futong his chief of staff headed south. Liu transformed the earlier armed White Lotus militia into Red Turbans. He was one of the many rival contenders for leadership of the Red Turbans. Eventually it was Zhu Yuanzhang that won out.

r.