Hong Quan anyone?

[Royal Dragon]

Masterkiller,

Was the "Little Tiger Swollow" a set that came out of the Nanjing Kuosho academy? If so, was it devloped there, OR was it developed in Shandong and just imported into Nanjing's curriculem?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks very much to everyone that is participating in this history lesson, I hope you all continue to discuss, Hong Quan history needs to be sorted out.

Questions that come to mind about all the various Hong Quans, please comment if you have any info, thanks:

- I saw documentation of the original Red 紅拳 Fist Xiao and Da Hong Quan sets and they were really the same as what is now called Vast Fist 洪拳 in Shaolin. Some clear variation in body mechanics, but the sets were the same regardless.

- The earliest I could find any history mentioning something called Hong Quan said there was a style called this that was practiced by the Tang military, and made its way into Shaolin during that era, along with some type of Pao Chui. No sets , just loose techniques, as was customary for the military. It's was a type of Tong Bei, which is like saying it was a type of Long Fist essentially.

- Shaolin has their widely known Xiao Hong Quan (36 postures) set, and also a set they now call Lao Jia Hong Quan (64 postures/72 movements) that is a longer, and more complex mechanically, version of the Xiao Hong Quan. Used to be that THIS set was called Da Hong Quan. And, I have some material from Shi De Gian that refers to this set as Da Hong Quan.

These two sets are what is called the Er (2) Hong Quan style of Shaolin?

- Then there are the Shaolin 6 Roads of the Da Hong Quan sets (which their quan pu poem/song attributes to Zhao Kuang Yin himself). Roads 1 and 2 are shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. Road one is pretty well known by people.
Any background on these Da Hong Quan sets ?

- Also, from Shi De Gian and from Liu Zhen Hai (and family) I have documentation of another series of a 4 Roads of Hong Quan sets. These are being called the Lao Hong Quan Shaolin style.
Any insight to when/where this from?

- What happened to the Hong Quan sets that Li Sou practiced at Shaolin during the Yuan Dynasty? It is supposed to be from Shanxi originally.
Is there anywhere it can be seen?

- From what I understand, the Ming TZ Hong Quan that the Ming military practiced was pretty different than any Shaolin Song TZ Quan (both Hong or Chang Quans), that it was closer to what morphed into the Tiger sets of the Southern martial arts (the tiger part of Tiger & Crane from Hong Gar).

- Shandong had a documented group of monks from Shaolin in the exodus from Shaolin that happened in the 1700s. The linages from stem from them do Hong Quan sets as well, but their stuff looks like Shaolin Song TZ, but by now, with a Shandong martial arts flavor (some Cha Quan thrown in and so on).

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.
There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?
So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

THANKS! Looking forward to all of your comments (Shaolin Master, R. Shaolin, Mantis 108, etc)

On the subject of Ming Dynasty founder, Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, and the 'Hong Quan - Red Fist 紅拳' and the meaning of 'Hong' in 'Hong Quan - Vast Fist 洪拳'.

. . .

Han military insurgents practiced Hong Quan in preparations for uprising against the Manchu occupation during the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). The red color symbolized the Han revolutionaries against the Manchu, as it had centuries before in the late Song period, as well as in the late Yuan period.

Oral and recorded legend gives Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) original credit for creating Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what is passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the contemporary versions of northern Hong probably happened during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military. As per my post concerning Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998); his teachers; Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪(1884-1981); Sun Yanbiao's teacher - General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環 (1862-1930); General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 (one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during the mid and late 1800's) all attributed Hong to Zhao Kuangyin of the Song dynasty. Note that unlike Shaolin these northern Hong Quan traditions use the character 紅 - red in Hong Quan. In the tradition of Shaolin that I practice the character hong 洪 (some people translate this as 'flood' but the term is used to mean - expansive/vast) instead of 紅, 'red'. Why?

It is not because Shaolin Hong Quan was unrelated in either technique or history to other northern Hong Quan styles. Shaolin also attributes Hong Quan to Hong to Zhao Kuangyin 趙匡胤 and technically it is similar to other northern Hong Quan systems. The use of 'vast' instead of 'red' had more to do with politics.

During this rebellious period the Yuan government was well aware of the "Hong" army and the meaning of Hong/red 紅. The Qing government as well as the Buddhist administrators were also very much aware of the involvement of some Buddhists groups who were spreading this sectarian rebellion under the name of "Hong 紅". For this reason Shaolin Si, being an Imperial monastery, had to distance itself from the Red Turbans by avoiding the term. Keep in mind as well, the Red Turban armies had also relied on pillaging to support their forces. At one point even Shaolin monks had to fight off Red Turban looters.

In summary Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, began his careers as a Red Turban leader, and in the end was its only leader. However his scholar advisers recommended he distance himself from this movement. In fact eventually even to mention that Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 had been a Red Turban leader became taboo. However because many of his officers and soldiers and people still were believes in the Red Turban ideology. Zhu Yuanzhang 朱元璋 adopted the rein name of Hongwu 洪武. Hongwu, means "Vast Military," which references the massive army of the people that put him into power. It also sounded like Hong 紅 'red', giving it a positive ring to the old guard. The use of "vast' and not 'red' for Hong Quan by Shaolin in its two sets; Xiao and Da Hong Quan 大洪拳 and 小洪拳, suggests to me that that these sets were absorbed (or possibly renamed) there sometime during the mid or late Yuan Dynasty.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Masterkiller,

Was the "Little Tiger Swollow" a set that came out of the Nanjing Kuosho academy? If so, was it devloped there, OR was it developed in Shandong and just imported into Nanjing's curriculem?

Far as I know, this set is from the Mizhong style, which is attributed to the Song Dynasty, and has been around a long time.
It is one of the styles and sets that the Nanjing used as a base to develop their sets from.

[MasterKiller]

Far as I know, this set is from the Mizhong style, which is attributed to the Song Dynasty, and has been around a long time.
It is one of the styles and sets that the Nanjing used as a base to develop their sets from.

Some claim it comes from Wang Lang himself (but we all know it didn't. )

[Royal Dragon]

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.

Reply]
But where did those two Tai tzu sets come from? did they exist in shandong as part of a tai tzu system prior? Or were they created at Nanjing?


There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?

Reply]
I don't think that has been answered yet. They may be Shandong Tai Tzu imported into Nanjing.


So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

Reply]
If they collected various sets, then those sets had to have existed previously, or they would not have been able to collect them...so by that logic they probably are ancient sets.

We need to understand that the Nanjing system is not Tai tzu, but just a collection of various Long fist sets from other traditions. Some of those sets Nanjing created, others they imported from other systems. If these two Tai Tzu Hong Quan sets were imported from a larger Tai tzu Hongquan system stemming from Shandong, then there should be a complete system out there with those two forms in it that would include all the matching sets as well.

We need to find out if Nanjing created them, or Imported them into thier curicculem.

[Robert Young]

- From what I have heard of the TZ Chang Quan Yi Lu and Er Lu sets that Han Qing Tang taught in Taiwan is that they are just an amalgamation of various movements from various Shandong styles, and hence the bunch of sets this lineage does all resemble each other like how Mai Fu and so on look like these two TZ Sets, etc.

Reply]
But where did those two Tai tzu sets come from? did they exist in shandong as part of a tai tzu system prior? Or were they created at Nanjing?


There is a dim relation to Song TZ Quan from Shaolin, but nothing directly, is this correct?

Reply]
I don't think that has been answered yet. They may be Shandong Tai Tzu imported into Nanjing.


So, if a TZ Quan lineages practices these two Han Qing Tang taught sets of TZ Quan, they are not ancient sets, but rather this lineages must have collected together whatever set were called TZ and practiced them, but this does not mean that they were really old sets at all, correct?

Reply]
If they collected various sets, then those sets had to have existed previously, or they would not have been able to collect them...so by that logic they probably are ancient sets.

We need to understand that the Nanjing system is not Tai tzu, but just a collection of various Long fist sets from other traditions. Some of those sets Nanjing created, others they imported from other systems. If these two Tai Tzu Hong Quan sets were imported from a larger Tai tzu Hongquan system stemming from Shandong, then there should be a complete system out there with those two forms in it that would include all the matching sets as well.

We need to find out if Nanjing created them, or Imported them into thier curicculem.

Let me clearify some mis-understanding hear, I'm direct line from GM Han, Qing-Tan. Our Tai-Zu Chang Chuan from GM Han's was from Sang Dong. It is a traditional Long Fist form and it has nothing to do with Nan-Jing Guo Shu Guan. And, it is one form, not 2 routines. The only forms we practiced from Nang-Jing are Lien-Bu and Gong-Li, Chu-Ji (Basic level), Zhong Ji(Intermediate level) forms. The majority of our Long Fist Forms are from Sang Dong. Also, it has nothing to do with Hong Quan either. Da, Xiao Hong Quan has their own moves and they are totally different from our Tai-Zu Chang Quan.

There maybe other Tai-Zu forms from other systems and I don't know how they relate to other forms. But, our Tai Zu Chang Quan is totally came from Long Fist in Sang Dong.

[Royal Dragon]

Robert young,
Is this the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

First section of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

[Robert Young]

Robert young,
Is this the same set as your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

First section of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4

Yes, it is the same as our Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. And, it is the only and the whole form. There is no second section of this form. The person in the clip is my younger Long Fist uncle Lee, Mao-Qing.

[Royal Dragon]

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3ty...elated&search=

[Robert Young]

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3ty...elated&search=

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Instead, I'd like to ask what is this set, shown in this book:

LionBooks # LBPM- -A203
TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

cover of book:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/L...kmini_A203.jpg

[Sal Canzonieri]

This is the second half of that set. Together they are roughy 108 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f3ty...elated&search=

I think you have been misled about this, I have never seen anything to support this information anywhere.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Let me clarify some mis-understanding hear, I'm direct line from GM Han, Qing-Tan. Our Tai-Zu Chang Chuan from GM Han's was from Sang Dong. It is a traditional Long Fist form and it has nothing to do with Nan-Jing Guo Shu Guan. And, it is one form, not 2 routines. The only forms we practiced from Nang-Jing are Lien-Bu and Gong-Li, Chu-Ji (Basic level), Zhong Ji(Intermediate level) forms. The majority of our Long Fist Forms are from Sang Dong. Also, it has nothing to do with Hong Quan either. Da, Xiao Hong Quan has their own moves and they are totally different from our Tai-Zu Chang Quan.

There maybe other Tai-Zu forms from other systems and I don't know how they relate to other forms. But, our Tai Zu Chang Quan is totally came from Long Fist in Sang Dong.

Cool, thanks for letting me know that, I was getting confused, there are so many claims being made when it comes to long fist lineages.

Do you have some history/lineage info that about this TZ Chang Quan set from your Han Qing Tan school?

Where it came from - was it created in Shaolin, in Shandong, somewhere else? How old is it?

It's relationship to Zhao Kuang Yin, if any, etc, etc.
Any kind of background.

It's very different from other Song Tai Tzu sets I have seen that come out of Shaolin, it has a lot of Shandong province martial arts in it, like Mizhong, Mantis, Cha Quan, etc.
It shares some movements with Xiao Hu Yen, Mai Fu, etc., correct?

[Robert Young]

Instead, I'd like to ask what is this set, shown in this book:

LionBooks # LBPM- -A203
TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

cover of book:
http://www.plumpub.com/images/Mini/L...kmini_A203.jpg

Gao Dao Sheng's two road Long Fist is prabably the form he learned in Sang Dong when he was young. I don't know who he learned it from. I have not really looked inside of the book. But if he says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, it may be another Tai Zu Chang Quan set. But it does not relate to our Tai Zu Chang Quan. There are other people practice other Tai Zu Chang Quan froms from Sang Dong also, that does not mean they are related. Chinese like to use famous people to name their forms that does not mean Tai-Zu created the forms or anything related to Tai-Zu. It is simply a good name to use and people used it. There are many southern Tai Zu forms in southern Shaolin Tai Zu system from Fu-Jian/Taiwan also. But, they are from totally different systems.

[Robert Young]

Cool, thanks for letting me know that, I was getting confused, there are so many claims being made when it comes to long fist lineages.

Do you have some history/lineage info that about this TZ Chang Quan set from your Han Qing Tan school?

Where it came from - was it created in Shaolin, in Shandong, somewhere else? How old is it?

It's relationship to Zhao Kuang Yin, if any, etc, etc.
Any kind of background.

It's very different from other Song Tai Tzu sets I have seen that come out of Shaolin, it has a lot of Shandong province martial arts in it, like Mizhong, Mantis, Cha Quan, etc.
It shares some movements with Xiao Hu Yen, Mai Fu, etc., correct?

Tz Chang Quan is the form from Long Fist system. NO one really know the history of it, and it really doesn't matter. It is who we learned it from is important. Every generation and every master has modified a little bit here and there depending on their own interpretation. My Long Fist uncles' version of TZ is a little different from our version even some of my Long Fist younger uncle's Tz was actually taught by my teacher. This is Chinese thinking, and believe me, I'm very very traditional person and I'm dead serious about our tradition.

The term "Shaolin" is a general term. When we say I practice Shaolin simply means I practice Chinese martial arts. Then, there are northern Shaolin and southern shaolin which means norhtern Chinese martial arts and southern Chinese martial arts. Shaolin is not a system or style like some people think. In norhtern shaolin and southern shaolin, there are many many systems under each category. It is a simple way for people to identify which kind of martial arts they practice.

Yes, our TZ shares a lot of moves with MaiFu because MaiFu are also typical Long Fist forms we pratice. Xiao Hu Yen is another story, Our Xiao Hu Yen was from 7 star PM GM Wang, Song-Ting. All the Xiao Hu Yen from our Long Fist line under GM Han was from this source because it was my teacher first learned the form and spread the form to his Long Fist brothers. Our Xiao Hu Yen should be practiced a little different from the way LF does simply because it is a PM form, but most people do not know the difference. That is why some people think it has our LF influence. But the reality is that it should be praticed like PM not LF.

The history of our lineage I know can only traced back to my Long Fist great grand teachers who taught the arts to my GM Han in Sang Dong. This is the lineage we follow.