Hong Quan anyone?

[Royal Dragon]

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Reply]
Interesting, and good to know. I have seen the second part of the set elswhere though, not just him. If you have a copy of the Tai tzu edition of Treasures of taiwan, you see a girl dressed in white who also does the second section of that form. she refers to it as "A" Tai tzu Chuan routine though, and not as a second part of a larger set....so maybe it's two seperate forms?

[r.(shaolin)]

TWO ROAD LONG FIST by Gao Tao Sheng
He says it is a TZ Chang Quan Er Lu set, from Shandong as well, since he is from there.

Hi Sal,
Any chance you could scan and post the open sequence of this set?
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal,
Any chance you could scan and post the open sequence of this set?
r.

At your service, see attachments, shows the first five moves after the opening salute Gao always does in his sets.

I can tell you that this Gao set is much more closer to the Shaolin TZ Chang and Hong Quan that I know, and it not at all like the TZ Chang Quan form of the Han line.
So, it must be like was said, an unrelated set to the Han set.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The form in the clip is not from our line. It is not our Tai Zu Chang Quan form at all. I don't know where he learned it from. The person in the clip has learned some Long Fist form from my Senior Long Fist uncle Shen, Mao-Hui. But, he did not stay very long. He studied under my Long Fist uncle Shen with my younger Long Fist brothers for a while. Many of his comments about our Long Fist were his own invention. THis is a typical type of person who learned forms her and there and trying to make a living without his teachers' approval. Do NOT take too serious about his comments. The reason I know this is that I talked to his classmate (my younger Long Fist brother who studied with him) last year and verified with my Long Fist uncle Shen last month when I went back to Taiwan.

Reply]
Interesting, and good to know. I have seen the second part of the set elswhere though, not just him. If you have a copy of the Tai tzu edition of Treasures of taiwan, you see a girl dressed in white who also does the second section of that form. she refers to it as "A" Tai tzu Chuan routine though, and not as a second part of a larger set....so maybe it's two seperate forms?

It's done so differently it might as well be a different set.
Again, you might have been misled.

[Royal Dragon]

Well, here is the thing, I have seen that set elsewhere too though. I will concede that it's an unrelated set, and also that the performer does not use the body method for Tai tzu (Or any shaolin art that I can see), but the rough over all choreography appears to match the other versions I have seen, like the girl in white from the treasures of Taiwan tape(she also does the Cha Fist set too).

I think if you removed the flash from his set it would be legit.

[Royal Dragon]

How much of the Shanxi Hong Quan is Tai Tzu related? 100 forms is a lot. The Tai Tzu stuff has to be limited to only a handfull of sets.

Am I correct in thinking that Shanxi Hong quan today is more of a collection of Hong systems found in the region, rather than one massive style?

[r.(shaolin)]

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm

Do people understand how sets are analyzed in relation to each other?


I - as much info as possible is found on "who taught who what, when, and where". In this way, you can see how various sets spread over an area or from one region to another.

I agree this useful.

However in comparing sets the following are very important

2. the opening salutes and opening sequence gestures of the set - traditionally this was a important manner practitioners in old China identified each other.

3. the over all structure and pattern of the set – this tends to be the most stable aspect of sets
Individual movements are more susceptible to change for two reasons:
a. if a set moved to a different region, regional stylistic interpretations often effected individual movements and postures.
b. if a set was adopted by a different school the basics are the first things that were intentionally changed (looking at basics are useful for this reason)

4. in TCM systems each set has a few unique combinations along with many combination that are can be found in other sets of the system. Looking at these is useful. Certain combination are found in related systems.

IMO individual freeze frames posture are the least useful and can be very mis-leading.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Here's some new and interesting information on the Empty Flower board that you might all like to see, I was amazed by it:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...num=1187475183

Hong Quan is mentioned.

[RAF]

CCTV 4 is doing a documentary series on the various Chinese martial arts style. Last night they did Hong Quan. The program is on at 7:30 EST but is all in Chinese.

[Sal Canzonieri]

CCTV 4 is doing a documentary series on the various Chinese martial arts style. Last night they did Hong Quan. The program is on at 7:30 EST but is all in Chinese.

If you can watch it, please give us any factual points that might be of interest, thanks (dates, names, etc) that might be mentioned in the show.

[Sal Canzonieri]

http://shaolinwushuyuan.51.net/ywlw/2.htm



I agree this useful.

However in comparing sets the following are very important

2. the opening salutes and opening sequence gestures of the set - traditionally this was a important manner practitioners in old China identified each other.

3. the over all structure and pattern of the set – this tends to be the most stable aspect of sets
Individual movements are more susceptible to change for two reasons:
a. if a set moved to a different region, regional stylistic interpretations often effected individual movements and postures.
b. if a set was adopted by a different school the basics are the first things that were intentionally changed (looking at basics are useful for this reason)

4. in TCM systems each set has a few unique combinations along with many combination that are can be found in other sets of the system. Looking at these is useful. Certain combination are found in related systems.

IMO individual freeze frames posture are the least useful and can be very mis-leading.

r.

I totally agree, these are very important.

By the way, the 3 main sets of Shaolin Hong Quan have three different salutes and the opening and closing of each of their sets.

1 - Xiao Hong Quan sets
2 - Da Hong Quan sets
3 - Lao Hong Quan sets

The Lao Hong Quan sets always end with the Pull the Bow posture.
They always open with a Double Ming Fist (no flat hand over the fist, this of course was a Ming dynasty salute), the Lao Hong Quan sets, which are directly from Zhao Kuang Yin himself start out with Double Fist, each of the 4 sets do it in a different direction.

[Royal Dragon]

What about the Da hong sets? Do they have the same salute as the Lao hong sets?

Are those also from Zhao Kuang Yin? or are just the Lao hong sets from him??

[Sal Canzonieri]

What about the Da hong sets? Do they have the same salute as the Lao hong sets?

Are those also from Zhao Kuang Yin? or are just the Lao hong sets from him??

The 6 Da Hong sets have their own salute, similar to the xiao one, but not the same.

The first line of the song/poem for the first set says literally "given to us by the emperor Tai Tzu"

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting.

I was going through those charts you sent me, I don't think they are fully complete as some of the transitions don't make any sense to me. It could be that I don't have enough of a background to work them out as is. I need a more detailed blueprint.

Also, do you have the Da Hong charts as well?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Interesting.

I was going through those charts you sent me, I don't think they are fully complete as some of the transitions don't make any sense to me. It could be that I don't have enough of a background to work them out as is. I need a more detailed blueprint.

Also, do you have the Da Hong charts as well?

I throughly practiced the movements all month, everything is there.

What you don't see if that in the Chinese language explanation next to the images, it has further instructions, like "first step forward with right leg and then with left leg" and the image only shows the final leg movements in the motion arrows.

I can read you what the Chinese is saying if you are stuck.
There are just a few points where the text has more info that the illustration does not show at all.