Pin Yin vs. Yale System

[Siu Lum Fighter]

One thing I've run into on these forums recently is this slight pause before I realize how to pronounce certain words and phrases in Chinese when they're spelled with the 'pin-yin' system of romanization. Although the Yale and Wade-Giles systems are seldom used today they nevertheless remain the least confusing and the most accurate methods of spelling Chinese words for Western readers, because they conform more closely to standard English phonetics.

Since pin-yin has spread to the West it has mislead most Western readers and newscasters into mispronouncing the Chinese terms that appear in the media on a regular basis. For example, words pronounced 'jou' are inexplicably spelled 'zhou', the word 'shiao' is illogically spelled 'xiao', 'tsai' for no rhyme or reason is written 'cai', and words that would normally be spelled with a 'ch', are written with a 'q', like in 'qi'. There's no way on earth the average Western reader can fathom the proper pronunciation of Chinese words from such a spelling system. I predict that it will eventually just have to be done away with. That is, unless the Chinese government desires to continually befuddle the rest of the world when it comes to pronouncing Chinese words.

So, I propose that we all use the Yale system in this forum. How 'bout it guys?

[bodhitree]

Pin yin is pretty standard, plus it's easier.

[cjurakpt]

I personally prefer Yale, largely because we spoke Cantonese to Chan Tai San (or some Toisan-wa hybrid), and it was pretty easy to get a handle on, and anyway, that's all there is for it to be transliterated anyway; pin-yin, I agree, is irritating, and very counter-intuitive - maybe for egg heads used to using the Int'l Phonetic alphabet it makes sense, but whatever

BTW, can you use Yale for Mandarin?

[SPJ]

Yes. I have the same pronouciation problem when I first had to use it to type in order to get Chinese fonts in text.

However, we may also always add pronouciation in parenthesis.

Xiao (Shiau3), Cai (tsai3), there are 4 intonations in mandarin.

overtime, it will be all right.

Japanese, French, German, Spanish, Italian etc phrases, last times, place names are in English already.

People either pronouce them in "englishized or anglorized" or original way.

Would you say San Jose as san joze or san hosei.

etc

However, simplified Chinese are nowaday in decline in China.

Pin Yi may survive.

These 2 systems were adopted by CCP in China.

There is now a renaisance of old Chinese culture in China. Pin yin is counterintuitive for westerner but it is more close to right pronouciation in Mandarin which is better for native Chinese speaker to learn.

As pointed out, for other dialects may be the yale system is better or closer to right pronouciation.

[bodhitree]

I don't think pinyin is that different from other translated texts.

zh (as in zhang) is the same as the translation of ж from Russian to English. It is pronounced the same (like an english J) but is translated as zh

kak pazhivayesh

Pinyin is pretty simple when you get used to the differences. That's been my experience with Mandarin. I don't know about any of the others.

[PM]

pinyin today an international standard for putonghua, ie. "mandarin".

there is no standard romanization for Cantonese yet, but of all of the currently used systems, Yale is most widespread in the today's textbooks and dictionaries.

i definitely vote for pinyin for mandarin, and Yale for Cantonese. our website uses Yale, any i try to use Yale and pinyin in the discussions whenever possible. it might take time for people to get used to "kyun" instead of "kuen", but it is worth.

[TenTigers]

pinyin is fu(k-you in Chinese. "Let's use a "Q"-without a 'U" and pronounce it."CH"!
Oh, and "Z" is a "J" .oh yeah, it's a great system.
And how many people do you see saying,"Oh, I study Taijikwan and Kwee Gung!" It irritates the sh!t outta me.

[bodhitree]

use this translation system:

Chop Suey Springer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White Ghost Spring Roll.What You Talkie? All People you name I know . I Know Who your teacher.He ABC. Two knind ABC,Smart ABC,Dumb ABC.Your teacher Bill Chung is Dunb ABC Kind.You kind we call White Garbage. Dumb ABC teach White Gabage,you get we call Chop Suey.Your Teacher Kung Fu Chop Suey you know? Chop Suey Kung Fu is fool white garbage Like you. In China Chop Suey food Pig eat you know? Only White garbage pick 80 year old man. Mark Foon old you kick? You we call stupit White Ghost. Who me? Come Pell Street Hip Sing try find out. All get tirie you teacher Bill Chung .All now see Bill Chung like put up show for Hip Sing /Free Mason .In China we say pea make pea.I teach you :Bill Chung Talke spit from mouth,You Springroll Talke From Ass. Bill Chung too scare bring whitetrash student l youkind Chinese New Year. nobody want garbage.I say no true? hay? Then come Chinese new Year. Come Pell Street Hip Sing. I Give all tea drink. You Springroll I give special cup :my pee you must drinkie. Mark Foon too smart play you game.Chinese never give White garbage real kung fu.I see you Army man,How many book you read? How many meal you eat? Come Pell Street hip Sing and Drink my cup special tea. Let Fat man watch cancer man drink my special tea. That all I say.No ball come, don't waste time.I no answer.White garbage have one ball,come find me,I you elder,I you teacher elder.No ball,then use tonque clean Bill Chung ass,and I throw two garbage out now. I teach you one thing.In China say"Holding Chicking feather thinking it a devine right ".Now Come!

truthman


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=47177

Thread where this system is discussed at length.

[Fu-Pow]

From what I understand Pin Yin is based on the "romanization" (actually cyrillicization) of Chinese for the Russians. It was then converted for use with the Roman alphabet. This is why its so convoluted for us but makes perfect sense for the Russians.

But I don't think Pin Yin is going away anytime soon. Once you learn how it works its actually pretty easy to pronounce things.

FP

[bodhitree]

From what I understand Pin Yin is based on the "romanization" (actually cyrillicization) of Chinese for the Russians. It was then converted for use with the Roman alphabet. This is why its so convoluted for us but makes perfect sense for the Russians.

But I don't think Pin Yin is going away anytime soon. Once you learn how it works its actually pretty easy to pronounce things.

FP

Where did you here this, as someone with experience with both languages I don't see it. Actually the romanization of the Cyrillic alphabet is similar to pinyin, but not cyrillic itself.

[bredmond812]

there are many spellings in english that you have to just know in order to pronounce. knight, weigh, and others. These are easy once you have been taught. Pinyin is even easier, but it has to be explained, either through an example in a text, or even better, by a speaker. Once you know how to do it, it is very easy.

It has a few things i dont agree with, for example bo is more like buo, but huo is as it sounds. Why cant they make them consistent?

somebody said something about simplified text is on the decline in China or something like that? you mean 简体字? I would be shocked if that was the case, but then, I am not on the mainland.

B Red

[jdhowland]

PinYin orthography may simply be based on European phonetics regarding the Roman alphabet. This makes it less easy to read for English speakers but many other speakers of Eurolangs would have little trouble.
Japanese manufacturers also sometimes prefer a European slant when marketing products in the west. Many English speakers aren't aware that Mazda is pronounced Matsuda.
I agree that the Yale system is superb for Gwongdungwa!

[jdhowland]

somebody said something about simplified text is on the decline in China or something like that? you mean 简体字? I would be shocked if that was the case, but then, I am not on the mainland.

B Red[/QUOTE]

I just had a Chinese exchange student from Henan for the last year. This 16-year-old couldn't read standard characters without using a dictionary. She is a bright, studious, college-bound scholar but had learned nothing but simplified characters.

[bredmond812]

what are standard characters?

As far as I know, mainlanders only use simplified characters. There is no need to learn traditional.

B Red

[PangQuan]

I began reading Chinese translated texts with Confucian, Taoist and Historical texts so the Yale system just comes naturally when reading translated Chinese to English due to the fact that all the old school stuff that came out of China is this way. It makes more sense to my brain.

my introduction to the pinyin system was awkward and annoying....though I could see how this may be easier to understand for most westerners beginning to read Chinese literature.