Pin Yin vs. Yale System

[SPJ]

Yes. You are correct. It was a typo from my part.

[bredmond812]

Yes. You are correct. It was a typo from my part.

Its no problem.

[GeneChing]

The audience for Kung Fu Magazine here in America speaks English and understands it in the written form as it was taught to them in grammar school. I can tell ya, almost everyone I know who reads Kung Fu Magazine has trouble with the 'zh', 'x', 'c', and 'q' letterings of pin yin. The vast majority of readers aren't going to be Chinese scholor's, so why impose on them a new system when you could just use the phonetically correct written versions for the words and names?

Hey, at least we convert all the metrics to standard...well, most of them... Pinyin is not 'new'. It is the international standard. If you look at any academic research involving China, they are using pinyin. It's the standard for the United Nations (but America's not good about following the U.N. so that's probably not much of an argument). We use pinyin when we can. There are obvious exceptions like our very title, the Kung Fu Tai Chi, which should be gongfu taiji in pinyin. There we must bow to popular opinion. But in other terms like quan, we'll stick to the pinyin when possible. If a title of the school is SLF's Tai Chi Chuan school, we'll use Chuan, and remain consistent through the article, although we may note the pinyin for reference. Using pinyin empowers anyone doing serious research in martial arts. It may be harder on the general reader, but that's a trade off.

The real problem is that there is no "phonetically correct written versions" of Chinese. It's a different language and you simply cannot describe all of the sounds using our alphabet. Let's go back to Kung Fu/gongfu. The voice onset time of the word 'gong' is right smack in between a 'g' and a 'k' (you make the same motion with your mouth for either letter, but you voice a 'k' earlier than a 'g'). So how do you spell it phonetically correct? You can't really. Even in America, it's ambiguous. The term 'gung ho' has been with us for a long time. That 'gung' is the same character as in Kung Fu.

The bottom line is that Chinese is not easy stuff. Translation is very difficult. If you've done any work in language translation, you know that X does NOT equal X. But then again, if you want easy martial arts, you'd be better off trying something different that Kung Fu. The very definition of the word Kung Fu implies that it's going to be work - hard work. You want the 'real' Kung Fu? Work hard.

[lkfmdc]

The bottom line is that Chinese is not easy stuff. Translation is very difficult.

Try translating CCP congress documents with an angry old Chinese professor looking over your shoulder and an hour time limit

[hasayfu]

I fully agree there has to be standards and for English speaking people the standard for translating the Chinese language should be to use English phonetics. Russian or Latin or any other language should not factor in. The reason why most westerners are always complaining about pin yin is because it simply doesn't accurately represent the English language. So how can it be "easier".

The audience for Kung Fu Magazine here in America speaks English and understands it in the written form as it was taught to them in grammar school. I can tell ya, almost everyone I know who reads Kung Fu Magazine has trouble with the 'zh', 'x', 'c', and 'q' letterings of pin yin. The vast majority of readers aren't going to be Chinese scholor's, so why impose on them a new system when you could just use the phonetically correct written versions for the words and names?

It's easier because it is foreign and allows someone who wants to get the correct pronounciation and willing to put in a little effort to get it. We don't require French, Spanish or German words to be spelled phonetically. Why should we reqire Chinese? PinYin is not just a nice idea for the convenience of Americans. It is how Chinese can type and read using the modern english alphabet.

It's also not Russian phonetics. The creater studied in Russia (I believe) so he chose characters that were familiar to him but I doubt a Russian would have a much easier time then an American in sounding things out without some training.

On top of that, what is the phonetic language of America? There isn't one. At least Pinyin/Jyutping is consistent. Take the chinese in your screen name. Siu Lum. In Jyutping, it is Siu2 Lam4. Given that, you can go to a site like http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/main.php and ge the pronounciation. According to Webster representation, if we were to use a real English phonetic, it would be Syoo Luhm.

No one is forcing anyone to learn Pinyin but asking that we just use the correct phonetic spelling is naive or self centered.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

The real problem is that there is no "phonetically correct written versions" of Chinese. It's a different language and you simply cannot describe all of the sounds using our alphabet. Let's go back to Kung Fu/gongfu. The voice onset time of the word 'gong' is right smack in between a 'g' and a 'k' (you make the same motion with your mouth for either letter, but you voice a 'k' earlier than a 'g'). So how do you spell it phonetically correct? You can't really. Even in America, it's ambiguous. The term 'gung ho' has been with us for a long time. That 'gung' is the same character as in Kung Fu.

I see your point about 'g' and 'k', Gene. It's the same with 't' and 'd'. It's hard to know which letter to use when it sounds like it's somewhere in the middle. But 'x' for 'sh'? 'C' for 'ts' and 'q' for 'ch'?

I think, at the very least, pin yin should be revised. There just doesn't seem to be any reason to spell certain words like that. Of course, I'm in the camp that believes the French language should be revised as well. If something is broken, fix it. That's what I always say. I guess I'm just one of those radical linguists

[TenTigers]

Man, that's just bullxit!