The Death of TMA

[Mas Judt]

A while back I was having dinner with another instructor. I had commented on how many things I had modified in my training in response to Bjj/NHB. While it does not change my method, there are some things that are commonly taught that are now irrelevant due to how they (easily) open you up to a counter. The guy just stared at me like I was a nut. From his perspective the art was 'perfected' by it's creator and he'd be a fool to change anything. I shifted topic, and explained how once I had modified a method from SPM to fight some Golden Gloves boxers. It worked great. It used SPM principles, just was not used how I was taught it. Then I covered Sun Tzu - you know, know your enemy, know yourself....

Nontheless he thought I was a fool, and I thought he was a tool.

This is why MOST TMA group are relegated to the same bus as the Society for Creative Anacronism and other re-enactors, versus the martial art bus.

Thoughts?

[The Xia]

Unfortunately, a lot of so-called TMA do not train in the way that their styles were intended to be. This seems to lead people to think that TMA is useless or needs to mimic MMA. However, real TMA trained the way it is intended doesn’t need to change. You mentioned SPM. That's something very rare. It's acquired by hand to hand transmission, and there isn't an enormous number of people that really have the hand.

[Water Dragon]

All I know is, Darwin naturally selected the Correct.

[Oso]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it. only idiots will think that what they are taught is supposed to be maintained as is w/o interpretation or interpolation with or against other methods.

this goes without saying in my book but I've never been taught to think that way by any teacher

[Christopher M]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it.

Right. If you look back at the history of the traditional chinese arts, the theme of adaptation is ubiquitous. Even in recent history we have, for example, yiquan incorporating principles from western boxing. Usually "because this is the way it's always been done" really means "I don't know what it's done this way", but the former markets a whole lot better.

[PangQuan]

What I find funny is how some people will assume that thier art is "complete", and that nothing needs to change. It must remain exactly as it was given to them.

Yet they do not realize that the art they were given was the accumulation of many peoples interpretations and personal insights and developments within their own personal studies. A constant state of evolution.

When I am taught something, anything really not just martial arts techniques and principles, the material or information becomes MINE. When you truly learn something that thing is engrained in your being. It becomes part of you. After much study and scrutiny this knowledge becomes very intimate.

Once someone has this intimacy in place they can clearly see what it is they have. The strengths as well as the weaknesses. At this point it is the duty of the practitioner to find faults and reinforce them if at all possible. This is a requirement in all studies to further the evolution and creation process of something that is truly alive.

The artistic process of development coupled with the keen eye of science and functionality is always in a continual state of flux. For each person walks a different path, each path will have different pit falls.

Two people cannot take the exact same material and apply it seamlessley to their own particualar, seperate paths. The material must be changed to accomidate the environment.

As water flows down the streams bed it must flow effortlessly by perfectly molding itself to its environment. Though two streams may hold the same glaciers water, their paths will vary greatly.

I've always believed this was a very basic and intermediate concept to all life offers. A requirement to understand if you will.

It seems though that there will always be those who choose not to open their eyes.

[Oso]

Right. If you look back at the history of the traditional chinese arts, the theme of adaptation is ubiquitous. Even in recent history we have, for example, yiquan incorporating principles from western boxing. Usually "because this is the way it's always been done" really means "I don't know what it's done this way", but the former markets a whole lot better.

sadly, that's true.

[msg]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it. only idiots will think that what they are taught is supposed to be maintained as is w/o interpretation or interpolation with or against other methods.

this goes without saying in my book but I've never been taught to think that way by any teacher

i think the ma that should stay the same is the internal arts .if you changed them you would not retain any benefits thats why they are complete

[Becca]

A while back I was having dinner with another instructor. I had commented on how many things I had modified in my training in response to Bjj/NHB. While it does not change my method, there are some things that are commonly taught that are now irrelevant due to how they (easily) open you up to a counter. The guy just stared at me like I was a nut. From his perspective the art was 'perfected' by it's creator and he'd be a fool to change anything. I shifted topic, and explained how once I had modified a method from SPM to fight some Golden Gloves boxers. It worked great. It used SPM principles, just was not used how I was taught it. Then I covered Sun Tzu - you know, know your enemy, know yourself....

Nontheless he thought I was a fool, and I thought he was a tool.

This is why MOST TMA group are relegated to the same bus as the Society for Creative Anacronism and other re-enactors, versus the martial art bus.

Thoughts?

I think most people who are "traditionalists", who are honest, will admit that they do not use thier techniques exactly the way they do them in a form. The form is an encyclapedia of how those who came before you fought. I beleive you are to learn the metrial and make it your own, but should still take care to pass on the original form in as pure a contex as possible. Just because it is the personal fighting style of someone long dead does not mean it has no merrit or that someone else may be able to beifit from some aspect of the form that you found useless.

[golden arhat]

[QUOTE=Becca;784102]I think most people who are "traditionalists", who are honest, will admit that they do not use thier techniques exactly the way they do them in a form. The form is an encyclapedia of how those who came before you fought. I beleive you are to learn the metrial and make it your own, [QUOTE]

an encyclopedia doesnt tell u how to string a sentence together

[DPL]

an encyclopedia doesnt tell u how to string a sentence together

But a form does show you how to string applications together. Christopher M's post makes the most sense - it's just as much folly to ignore the cumulative, earned knowledge of the past as it is to blindly believe that the 'way of the ancients' cannot be improved. You have to strike a balance.

Studying set forms for new applications is an intensely rewarding experience, both in discovering hidden meanings or new applications you hadn't previously considered, and also in personalizing the form and maybe, hopefully, adding to the accumulated wisdom with your own interpretation.

[Becca]

an encyclopedia doesnt tell u how to string a sentence together

Correct, a teacher does. Just as the form doesn't teach you to fight... The teacher does.


Your point was?

[golden arhat]

Correct, a teacher does. Just as the form doesn't teach you to fight... The teacher does.


Your point was?

but not with the form
just as u very rarely use big and long complicated words in regular conversation
or find urself in a situation where u would need them



as far as i'm concerned
TMA is useless and can die a horrible and obscure death somewhere for all i care

[Becca]

but not with the form

And an Engish teacher does not teach sentence structure with an encyclopedia...

just as u very rarely use big and long complicated words in regular conversation
or find urself in a situation where u would need them

Maybe a 16-year-old doesn't. I'm a junior purchasing agent; I use and abuse large words quite a bit. (thank goodness my e-mail program has spell check even if this one doesn't. )

Another small data point: an encyclodedia is not a dictionary; it does not list words and their meanings. encyclodedias are reference books that list topics in alphabetical order...

as far as i'm concerned
TMA is useless and can die a horrible and obscure death somewhere for all i care

That's a good reason for you not to study it. Your oppinion is not a good reason for me not to study. Nor is a Completely mature statment like the one you just made enough to make be change my mind...