The Death of TMA

[Mas Judt]

A while back I was having dinner with another instructor. I had commented on how many things I had modified in my training in response to Bjj/NHB. While it does not change my method, there are some things that are commonly taught that are now irrelevant due to how they (easily) open you up to a counter. The guy just stared at me like I was a nut. From his perspective the art was 'perfected' by it's creator and he'd be a fool to change anything. I shifted topic, and explained how once I had modified a method from SPM to fight some Golden Gloves boxers. It worked great. It used SPM principles, just was not used how I was taught it. Then I covered Sun Tzu - you know, know your enemy, know yourself....

Nontheless he thought I was a fool, and I thought he was a tool.

This is why MOST TMA group are relegated to the same bus as the Society for Creative Anacronism and other re-enactors, versus the martial art bus.

Thoughts?

[The Xia]

Unfortunately, a lot of so-called TMA do not train in the way that their styles were intended to be. This seems to lead people to think that TMA is useless or needs to mimic MMA. However, real TMA trained the way it is intended doesn’t need to change. You mentioned SPM. That's something very rare. It's acquired by hand to hand transmission, and there isn't an enormous number of people that really have the hand.

[Water Dragon]

All I know is, Darwin naturally selected the Correct.

[Oso]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it. only idiots will think that what they are taught is supposed to be maintained as is w/o interpretation or interpolation with or against other methods.

this goes without saying in my book but I've never been taught to think that way by any teacher

[Christopher M]

imo, it's a rather recent, and mostly western thing, to think that what you are taught is the holy grail. no martial art that we see today hatched out of an egg complete as we see it.

Right. If you look back at the history of the traditional chinese arts, the theme of adaptation is ubiquitous. Even in recent history we have, for example, yiquan incorporating principles from western boxing. Usually "because this is the way it's always been done" really means "I don't know what it's done this way", but the former markets a whole lot better.

[PangQuan]

What I find funny is how some people will assume that thier art is "complete", and that nothing needs to change. It must remain exactly as it was given to them.

Yet they do not realize that the art they were given was the accumulation of many peoples interpretations and personal insights and developments within their own personal studies. A constant state of evolution.

When I am taught something, anything really not just martial arts techniques and principles, the material or information becomes MINE. When you truly learn something that thing is engrained in your being. It becomes part of you. After much study and scrutiny this knowledge becomes very intimate.

Once someone has this intimacy in place they can clearly see what it is they have. The strengths as well as the weaknesses. At this point it is the duty of the practitioner to find faults and reinforce them if at all possible. This is a requirement in all studies to further the evolution and creation process of something that is truly alive.

The artistic process of development coupled with the keen eye of science and functionality is always in a continual state of flux. For each person walks a different path, each path will have different pit falls.

Two people cannot take the exact same material and apply it seamlessley to their own particualar, seperate paths. The material must be changed to accomidate the environment.

As water flows down the streams bed it must flow effortlessly by perfectly molding itself to its environment. Though two streams may hold the same glaciers water, their paths will vary greatly.

I've always believed this was a very basic and intermediate concept to all life offers. A requirement to understand if you will.

It seems though that there will always be those who choose not to open their eyes.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the preservationists have a place though. With out them really ancient styles would not still be with us.

[Water Dragon]

I think the preservationists have a place though. With out them really ancient styles would not still be with us.

Most definately. I love antique cars, but I wouldn't put a Model-T in Nascar. I think the problem is a lot of people have an apple but claim it's an orange.

[lkfmdc]

Most martial artists are indeed anacronists, though the sad thing is they don't realize it

People get dressed up like civil war soldiers and re-enact the battles for fun and for history, but they don't think that makes them a modern military force.

Methods of fighting with swords, shields, spears, lances, axes, etc. indeed had immediate relevance and utility to mankind for a great deal of our recorded history.

However, the relevance and meaning of martial arts training still changed as society evolved. Advances in warfare technology made many older battlefield methods either lessened in importance or completely obsolete. At the same time, increasingly urban lifestyles created a new need for both individual self defense and personal dueling methods.

The average Renaissance gentleman certainly had practical need of sword fighting techniques to defend himself and his honor in the urban life he led, but very little need for battlefield training with armor and lances.

Today, a student may similarly find utility in learning to defend against a knife attack but has absolutely no practical application for the sword fighting techniques the Renaissance gentleman may have used on many occasions.

This appears not only to be a logical but also an obvious conclusion, yet how many martial arts students in the modern world still devote time and energy to the mastery of such archaic weaponry?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Agreed, however, fighting is fighting, and the human body has not changed at all since 200,000 years ago when our species first evolved. I really don't believe fighting has much either.

If anything what has happened is we got away from real fighting, and are now going back to basics. Even "Modern" conditioning is looking more, and more like Old Time strong man training.

Sometimes, if it ain't Broke, don't Fix it. What MMA has effectively done is gone back to a point before it was broken, when styles were defined by the groups of techniques seen during the fight instead of how many forms you knew.

[TenTigers]

not to mention, foil,epee and sabre. I'm just a freakin dinosaur.

[lkfmdc]

I really don't believe fighting has (changed) much either.

What you believe, pardon me, has very little to do with reality!

There was a time in the not so distant past when Americans believed that kicking was "unfair fighting" and you'd never see a kick in a street fight or brawl.... maybe you're just too young

Most TCMA feature inside trips, but now with people doing BJJ this is a very bad idea

The head butt is still relatively unusual in the US, in most of Europe it is an integral part of their brawling and fighting culture

back to kicking, unlikely an American will throw a kick at your head in the street, in Korea you see jumping kicks in street fights

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

There is nothing new under the sun here Ross. Every thing you described has been going on for 200,000 years, and much of it may even predate our species.

Just because things come in and out of vogue over time and varying geographies does not mean anything changes. It just means the same stuff that has ALWAYS been there is in the spotlite a bit more than it has been in recent memory.

[lkfmdc]

There is nothing new under the sun here Ross. Every thing you described has been going on for 200,000 years, and much of it may even predate our species.

Just because things come in and out of vogue over time and varying geographies does not mean anything changes. It just means the same stuff that has ALWAYS been there is in the spotlite a bit more than it has been in recent memory.

If you never get "Royal Dragon" back as a screen name, I can suggest an alternative, CLEOPATRA......

[Black Jack II]

may even predate our species.

??????????????