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Thread: Brian Grey

  1. #136
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    ah, but what you DON'T know, whippersnapper, is that the cow was a Kung-Fu practitioner, and was being treated for an eye injury with his Sifu's dit da jow.
    Jeez Chris, sometimes yer such a smart-a**. :-p "thppppt"
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  2. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    nice try, but no cigar; while technically anything is possible, it's so improbable as to render it essentially non-debatable - for example, the fact that there are no names or other identifying data associated with the story makes it totally suspect; and also that the history of it's discovery is well-documented (below is one example):

    Hyaluronic acid was discovered in 1934 by Karl Meyer and John Palmer, scientists at Columbia University, New York. They isolated the substance from a cow’s eye and conceived the name from hyalos (Greek work for glass) and the uronic sugar found in the substance. Hyaluronic acid was first used commercially in 1942 when Endre Balazs applied for a patent to use it as a substitute for egg white in bakery products. He went on to become the leading expert on hyaluronic acid and made the majority of discoveries relating to hyaluronic acid over the next fifty years.


    slightly more plausible than someone stealing a dit da jow formula and stiffing the TCM guy who he got it from
    FWIW, I "amended" that to hyaluronidase....
    The researchers being from Columbia seems to put it in the "area" of NYC Chinatown, while what I'd heard of was from LA......
    The "cow's eye" seems to put it into the area of bovine "matter" which has a certain similarity....


    ok "oldster", and what? 50 yrs. ago BS was still BS, AFAIK, if not more so given that the ability to debunk stories of that nature was a lot less than it is now
    In any case, I was still able to find "some material" about hyaluronidase "back then"
    and still "remember it" to some degree.
    Seems like you took a bit to go do a look-up yourself.


    that is all very interesting, but essentially irrelevant to the point about the story you heard being ridiculous;
    No more ridiculous than some of the stories you tell, Mr. Skeptic.
    If I find myself short of something useful to do, perhaps I'll take the opportunity to wax skeptical over your latest and greatest "revelation".
    Last edited by bakxierboxer; 01-28-2009 at 12:02 PM.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    No offence, but isn’t that comment a little arrogant?

    Having said that, I also have no idea who you are, so my reply was more meant towards an anonymous internet username instead of a real person (if yhat makes sense to you). I have also never met this Brian Grey or any of his students, and probably wont ever do so either.
    I'm sorry I guess I am a little arrogant
    I did say I liked the guy!
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  4. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    FWIW, I "amended" that to hyaluronidase....
    ok... but that's the enzyme that breaks down hyaluronic acid, so now you are talking about a different chemical...

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    The researchers being from Columbia seems to put it in the area of NYC Chinatown,
    they are both in Manhattan; with about 200 blocks in between;

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    while what I'd heard of was from LA......
    but still no documented evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    The "cow's eye" seems to put it into the area of bovine "matter" which has a certain similarity....
    similarity to what? did I miss something? what does bovine "matter" have to do with anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    In any case, I was still able to find "some material" about hyaluronidase "back then"
    and still "remember it" to some degree.
    Seems like you took a bit to go do a look-up yourself.
    yeah - I Googled "hyaluronic acid history"

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    No more ridiculous than some of the stories you tell, Mr. Skeptic.
    such as? please give me a specific example of which story you find ridiculous;

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    If I find myself short of something useful to do, perhaps I'll take the opportunity to wax skeptical over your latest and greatest "revelation".
    again, specifics please; and by all means, be as skeptical as you like about anything I say - if you can provide reliable evidence contradicting anything I post, I am all up for it; also, sarcasm does little to further your argument or polemic in general
    Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 01-28-2009 at 12:21 PM.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    it would make for a nice comparative research study: one control group, one group using jow applied lightly, one using jow applied deeply, one group only doing deep massage (you might even have one group using "sham" jow as well, but that would make it even more complex); but you would need at least 20 people per group for statistical power, you'd have to standardize the jow formula, and you'd have to standardize both the training portion (e.g. - specific # of strikes on a bag at a specific force level) and the massage part; then you'd have to have a reliable / valid measurement: probably a subjective reports using some sort of standardized reporting tool, in terms of reorting pain, stiffness, etc.; you might be able to do some sort of functional testing, but that would be tricky to establish; finally, you might test physiological markers of some sort, but again, not sure what that would involve

    bottom line - good research is difficult at best, because of all the variables involved; and then, of course, there is the notion that all training of this type is highly individualized, that standardization is not only impossible, it is undesirable; which, of course, is fine - but then one is not able to make an generalized statements regarding the practice or the jow itself - there's always a tradeoff between specificity and generalizability!

    Good points,
    My only comments are as follows:
    a. Is it the dit da jow (standardized) OR the massage portion that shows effect?
    b. Everyone should have the same problem is same area
    c. Use of a pain stiffness scale plus SF-36 (quality of life)
    d. Time to relief is a better endpoint, i.e. 24, 48 hrs, etc or less
    e. Add a cost effective portion, MD vs OMD or acupuncturist
    f. You can nullify "sham treatment" if just massaging the area is good and compare to Time to relief. I would use sham in a different way thought that way may be an actual 'bogus' procedure when seen by an MD. For example, massaging the area then 'blowing qi (hot air??!!) is a shamanistic way to clear 'bad air' but a modern MD may see it as it may sound!!!

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    No,

    IP is not magic, but there are way too many people out there who think it is only about hitting your hand(s) on a bag.

    There is much to be learned from the anatomical structure and how to move efficiently as well as learning to move energy through the system.

    Overall IP can help people learn to strike better if they examine the training over a period of time.
    Funny thing though when a person is uninitiated to the mysteries if gung fu practice and it's related stance works and alignments it can appear quite magical. The Traveling "Monk" shows for instance. You look at those guys and go wow they can almost fly and how could that dude resist a blow to his head like that? In truth each and everything you see demonstrated there is a teachable skill set but until you learn it "It's magic!"
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  7. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    Good points,
    My only comments are as follows:
    a. Is it the dit da jow (standardized) OR the massage portion that shows effect?
    you would have to seperate out the two: one group jow applied w/out deep massage; one applied with deep massage; one deep massage alone;

    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    b. Everyone should have the same problem is same area
    it's not a clinical trial using patients - your sample is healthy adults doing IP training; you would need a baseline report from each person pre-training, immediately post-training and then post-application of the modality in question;

    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    c. Use of a pain stiffness scale plus SF-36 (quality of life)
    I am not familiar with that one, but will go take a look at it - but if it's standardized and has been shown to be valid / reliable, sure

    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    d. Time to relief is a better endpoint, i.e. 24, 48 hrs, etc or less
    sure, why not - but you would need a sensitive window - for example, in 24 hr. everyone might feel better anyway - so I'd look at 1 hour, 3 hours, 6 hours - something like that maybe (or smaller increments even)

    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    e. Add a cost effective portion, MD vs OMD or acupuncturist
    certainly a good parameter to look at, but this is typically done once the relative efficacy has been determined; to wit,one could argue that taking Advil after IP training could be a cheaper alternative, LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    f. You can nullify "sham treatment" if just massaging the area is good and compare to Time to relief. I would use sham in a different way thought that way may be an actual 'bogus' procedure when seen by an MD. For example, massaging the area then 'blowing qi (hot air??!!) is a shamanistic way to clear 'bad air' but a modern MD may see it as it may sound!!!
    the point of a "sham" jow is that it's easy to do and impossible to detect, as opposed to "sham" deep massage, for obvious reasons;

    all excellent points; and goes to further underscore the difficulty inherent in conducting good (reliable / valid) research;

  8. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    ok... but that's the enzyme that breaks down hyaluronic acid, so now you are talking about a different chemical...
    For me, remembering that something from that far back contains "hyalur..." is "pretty good".
    What do you remember from then?


    they are both in Manhattan; with about 200 blocks in between;
    A good deal closer than LA.



    but still no documented evidence
    If I'd thought much about it back then, I'm not sure just who I'd have approached to write it up.


    similarity to what? did I miss something? what does bovine "matter" have to do with anything?
    In an earlier post on this I mentioned that the ingredient involved in the "herbal" formula was bull testicles.


    yeah - I Googled "hyaluronic acid history"
    Right about the time I looked it up to answer SR & corrected myself.


    such as? please give me a specific example of which story you find ridiculous;
    Guess.


    again, specifics please; and by all means, be as skeptical as you like about anything I say - if you can provide reliable evidence contradicting anything I post, I am all up for it; also, sarcasm does little to further your argument or polemic in general
    Different strokes....
    I write the way I write.

  9. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    For me, remembering that something from that far back contains "hyalur..." is "pretty good".
    yeah, well considering the ending of the word completely changes the chemistry of it, not good enough in terms of the argument;

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    In an earlier post on this I mentioned that the ingredient involved in the "herbal" formula was bull testicles.
    cows ≠ bulls; eyes≠testes; proximity≠causality

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    Guess.
    oh please, grow up; with all due respect, if you want to criticize something I wrote, go right ahead, but don't play the coy game; I think the reality is that you can't recall anything specific, you are just making a general comment; which is fine, but at least be honest about it;

    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    Different strokes....
    I write the way I write.
    that's fine, but it diminishes your inherent credibility;

  10. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    yeah, well considering the ending of the word completely changes the chemistry of it, not good enough in terms of the argument;
    OTOH, remembering something like that as having a "connection" to any Jow formulation would seem to be an interesting point of information.


    cows ≠ bulls; eyes≠testes; proximity≠causality
    No kiddin'?
    Your new role as "Mr. Obvious"?


    oh please, grow up; with all due respect, if you want to criticize something I wrote, go right ahead, but don't play the coy game; I think the reality is that you can't recall anything specific, you are just making a general comment; which is fine, but at least be honest about it;
    You're right about that.
    For the most part, although you can be annoyingly wordy at times, your info is good.
    Areas where I felt that it wasn't so good seemed to not be worth jumping on.


    that's fine, but it diminishes your inherent credibility;
    Hunh!
    Surprised that you think I have any at all.

  11. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by bakxierboxer View Post
    you can be annoyingly wordy at times
    no one forces anyone to read what I post; ignore can be your friend

  12. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    no one forces anyone to read what I post; ignore can be your friend
    Which is what I've mostly been doing... hyper-skimming.
    (not bad enough to be on my Ignore List.... yet)

  13. #148
    Can we get back to bashing Grey this talk of chemistry and such is for the high brow crowd, not us

  14. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Akronviper View Post
    Can we get back to bashing Grey this talk of chemistry and such is for the high brow crowd, not us

    sounds like a good idea b.

    down with brain grey and his bald head boooooo hisssssss

  15. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    no one forces anyone to read what I post; ignore can be your friend
    So why do you keep reading my posts, if they are not to your liking?

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