Flawed transmission

[Ben Gash]

I've been a little quiet recently, and I thought I'd share some of my musings.
Why do students overcomplicate things? Increasingly of late I've noticed that my students keep adding superfluous movements into their forms, extra little flowers and hand turns that serve no purpose and I certainly didn't teach them. Some of my students seem to have this subconscious desire to look like a Shaw Brothers movie This then led me to think are some of the impractical "advanced" transitions that you see in some forms simply a result of this?
This then spills over into the application drills. If I'm teaching a simple weight drop throw they keep trying to put extra steps, trips and turns into it. Last week I taught an application that simply went check, cling, pull and it took me half an hour simply because they kept putting extra little grip changes , steps and twists in and then couldn't make it work Again, I'm thinking is this why you see so much BS overcomplicated application work in TCMA?
I'm really finding it quite frustrating, do you think over time I can just drill it out of them, or does anyone have any ideas and strategies that may help?

[5Animals1Path]

They may not be doing it on purpose. I dunno about other people, but stuff creeps into my form on a near constant basis. I'll think I'm doing something right, and train it more and more, only to find out later it was wrong.

And when training techinques, my Sifu could show me how to do it from every angle, give me a step by step dissertation on the mechanics behind it, then show me once more just to make sure, and f*cked if I don't take a wrong turn/step/strike somewhere.

For a last thought, though I rarely do this other then by myself, is to purposefully do the move differently, just to "play" with it, see if I can figure out what's making it tick, then go and talk to my Sifu about it. Doubtin this one though, since you didn't say anything about it.



Of course, if they are doing it on purpose, you might try letting it go, and then making them use it in an application. If they can't find a use for it, or are shown an opening they leave on it, only the hardest head won't figure out maybe he should stick to what he's taught.

[TaichiMantis]

In my opinion, you get this problem when you teach forms without direct application training for each move in the form. My sifu loosely teaches the moves, then gives us corrections to improve each move. However, he mostly leaves the application to our immagination. I don't agree with this way of teaching. He says he doesn't want to limit us by showing us applications for each move. Phooey! If you show me at least one, then I can see the principle and meaning for the move in the form...I can then come up with more. If I can't picture an application for some move I think is meaningless in a form, you will find yourself in the bind you are now in with your students.

Just my two cents...

[TenTigers]

there is an expression, (I forget how to say it in Chinese)
"Which eye did you see me do that with?" Meaning,That's not what I showed you.
I also have a problem with people who "stylize" forms. I usually see this with pea**** types, who want to be in the spotlight. You create this at times, when you find a kid who has talent, you nurture it, create a top performer, and his ego takes over. You teach low stances, they do it too low. You teach a grab, they swirl their hands first. Then when you correct them, they get mad at YOU. Go figure.

[Becca]

I also have a tendency to let things creep into my forms. I also know of a few places in my forms where I was taught wrong because things had been creeping into the forms for years before Long Sh'r noticed it and disseminated the correction.

I have also noticed that it's much easier to keep the garbage out of the form by working the application of the form side by side with the ritualized version or the form. By ritualized, I mean that every form is at least a 2 person form, even if you were never taught the "other" side of it. And the one person version is ritualized. By working the single form with the prac-ap form, you can keep both from gaining fluff or loosing details.

For instance, in Pai Lum the first full prac-ap a student learns is for Chinese Soft Fist. I used to have a devil of a time with both the form and it’s prac-ap, called Chinese Soft Fist Self Defense. Then I figured out that I needed to work them as two halve to the whole rather than two separate forms with similar names.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My sifu loosely teaches the moves, then gives us corrections to improve each move. However, he mostly leaves the application to our immagination. I don't agree with this way of teaching. He says he doesn't want to limit us by showing us applications for each move.

Reply]
This is pretty rampant in Chinese Kung Fu...and why you can learn as much or more Kung Fu from the books today, than most live teachers.

[TenTigers]

we teach applications, and hands on drilling way before introducing the form. In this way, the student understands where their biody is to be, and the form is icing on the cake, and is much easier to learn. The goal is to teach fighting as the emphasis.

[David Jamieson]

Drill it out of them. It's the way you know. Who cares why they do it, just work on having them not do that anymore. Be patient.

[SevenStar]

I've been a little quiet recently, and I thought I'd share some of my musings.
Why do students overcomplicate things? Increasingly of late I've noticed that my students keep adding superfluous movements into their forms, extra little flowers and hand turns that serve no purpose and I certainly didn't teach them. Some of my students seem to have this subconscious desire to look like a Shaw Brothers movie This then led me to think are some of the impractical "advanced" transitions that you see in some forms simply a result of this?
This then spills over into the application drills. If I'm teaching a simple weight drop throw they keep trying to put extra steps, trips and turns into it. Last week I taught an application that simply went check, cling, pull and it took me half an hour simply because they kept putting extra little grip changes , steps and twists in and then couldn't make it work Again, I'm thinking is this why you see so much BS overcomplicated application work in TCMA?
I'm really finding it quite frustrating, do you think over time I can just drill it out of them, or does anyone have any ideas and strategies that may help?

grandmaster of the obvious says:

1. they are students
2. they are BEGINNING students

this is something I have thought about as well, but there is really no other way to explain it than that. Things that are simple for an experienced person may take multiple steps, grip changes, etc. for someone who isn't used to doing it. I have a student who had the hardes time learning a simple jab. she simply HAS to punch upward, then bring her fist downward, in a choo choo train fashion. she just can't push her arm straight out. I have several who have problems bobbing and weaving - seems easy enough, but when you aren't used to it, there are a lot of coordination issues that need to be worked out with bobbing and weaving. that forced me to break it down into multiple motions so that they could grasp each motion individually. that's just the way it is.

[Knifefighter]

I'm really finding it quite frustrating, do you think over time I can just drill it out of them, or does anyone have any ideas and strategies that may help?

Yeah, don't do forms in the first place. If you only do applications, there will be no room for anything that is superfluous. Forms work just begs for inefficiencies to be thrown in.

[Ben Gash]

You have an annoying habit of ignoring half a post knifefighter.

[Pork Chop]

Yeah, don't do forms in the first place. If you only do applications, there will be no room for anything that is superfluous. Forms work just begs for inefficiencies to be thrown in.

yeah i don't think forms are the great evil you make them out to be.
but then, on the other hand, i also don't think you learn fighting from the forms.

i like 'em more as a warm up- like yoga, but a little less granola-y (depending on the kung fu style) with more of a coordination aspect.
in the past, regularly doing one or two forms kept me warm, loosened up, and made me feel good.
lately, my interest in training to fight has really dropped off, so i'm looking to get back into form work to have something to do.

as far as not screwin forms up, video cameras & daily practice are your friends!

[Knifefighter]

Forms are B.S.

Want to make them less so?

Teach only applications and sparring.

Then let the students determine their own single person drills (or forms if you will) coming from what they have learned in application drills and sparring. This is what boxing does with shadow boxing, and BJJ and wrestling do with solo work.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

we teach applications, and hands on drilling way before introducing the form. In this way, the student understands where their biody is to be, and the form is icing on the cake, and is much easier to learn. The goal is to teach fighting as the emphasis.

Reply]
This is the real old school way of doing things....if everyone went back to it, there would be much better fighters out there than there are today.




Forms are B.S.

Want to make them less so?

Teach only applications and sparring.

Then let the students determine their own single person drills (or forms if you will) coming from what they have learned in application drills and sparring. This is what boxing does with shadow boxing, and BJJ and wrestling do with solo work.

Reply]
Forms were originally for the teacher, NOT the students. They give a more sport specific way of getting basic cardio and muscle memory retention for the teacher's solo practice as well as documenting the curriculum of the style and refining the mechanics of an experienced fighter. They have no place in the learning process. Form are really the LAST thing that should be taught.

[Knifefighter]

They give a more sport specific way of getting basic cardio and muscle memory retention for the teacher's solo practice as well as documenting the curriculum of the style and refining the mechanics of an experienced fighter. They have no place in the learning process. Form are really the LAST thing that should be taught.

LOL @ refining mechanics by doing stuff in the air. Refining your mechanics by doing stuff in the air would be like trying to perfect Tango dancing without a partner.

There is no need to ever teach forms. Anyone who wants to do forms dancing should make them up from what they already know.