Deadly techniques

[Ben Gash]

The challenge match video got me thinking, why do all these guys go "I'll beat you with my deadly techniques"? None of them go "I'll beat him with my strong fundamentals, good striking and bridging and clinching skills", which, if I was to fight in a challenge match is kinda what I'd be relying on.
I saw this recently and it got me thinking
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P_T0WLoI6pk
My own system has ten seeds, foundation principles that the whole system is based on. Every technique is derived from these ten seeds. There are advanced forms, but these don't really involve advanced techniques, it's the fundamentals linked in a more challenging way. There are certainly no advanced applications, again just combinations of fundamental skills. Ironically it's often the simplest of apps that require the most skill to pull off well. Now obviously we have structure and progression, and we have a lot of techniques, so how can I square that with the linked statement? As i've said, we really only have ten techniques, we just have different ways to do them. Just like a boxer learns how to work the angles and timings with his punches, just like the BJJ guy learns how to uses his passes and reguards to gain better positions, then learns how to link them into holds, then learns to create linked progressions.
Now I know that other Chinese systems have similar sets of core fundamentals, so why is the "deadly, advanced techniques" attitude so widespread (especially as it's fairly easy to highlight cases where a good right cross has been a deadly technique)? Is it a Chinese thing from Wuxia novels and Kung fu movies? Or is it a western phenomenum? I know you often here teachers in the MA press saying that teachers held stuff back, which has diluted the effectiveness of kung fu. What did they hold back that could possibly be that great, and which people couldn't figure out through live training with the fundamentals?
There's also the western story about the wrestling champion who teaches his student his 100 techniques, and then when the student challenges him and he beats him easily with the 101st technique which he hadn't taught. Again, if he'd learned the hundred well, he really shouldn't have been unable to counter the 101st. i've kinda run out of steam now, I'll try to add some more lucid stuff in a bit

[5Animals1Path]

The challenge match video got me thinking, why do all these guys go "I'll beat you with my deadly techniques"? None of them go "I'll beat him with my strong fundamentals, good striking and bridging and clinching skills", which, if I was to fight in a challenge match is kinda what I'd be relying on.

You know why. Because people who actually study what they're being taught, and want to find out the exact mechanics/whats/whys behind their style don't f*cking bother with stupid @ss challenge matches.

If anything, they're more interested in "friendly" sparring matches with like minded people.

[stonewarrior67]

great thought provoking post. two things if i may add. i have a great teacher that once said to the class, the basics are your bread and butter, you should be able to beat anyone just with the basics. the last is when i wrestled..the guys that would do great and go to state every year were the ones who had only two moves. the thing that made them unstoppable is that the "knew" those moves or if you'd rather techniques and made them theirs being able to pull them off lightening quick and from any angle or position.
sw

[TenTigers]

"Don't fear the man who knows a thousand techniques.
Fear the man who knows ONE technique,
and practiced it a thousand times."

[The Willow Sword]

I totally agree with Thortons philosophy, and i will go so far as to include the Kung fu with this line of thinking. The simplest techniques in the cma systems usually are the ones that WORK. everything else is just garbage. Hsing-I is a prime example of how the simple stand up fighting techniques WORK. Same with Shuai Jiao and the throwing and grappling techniques, and bagua and the evasive techniques. They ALL WORK, the real deal with all of it is how well do YOU KNOW THEM?

Good vid and good thread.

Peace,TWS

[TaichiMantis]

Good thread. It's not so much about deadly techniques as actually understanding and being able to apply underlying principles under extreme circumstances. Very hard to prepare for that both in mind and body. I think it's a combo of westerners not knowing how to let go, relax, and focus their body with their mind. But it's also a matter of the east being too obtuse and flowery with their descriptions/explanations/names. I started kung fu at age 43 and am now at age 47. After getting a bigger picture of Chinese martial arts by doing reading and discussing outside of class, little light bulbs started to glow...not brightly mind you, but enough to wish I had gone about things a little differently.

Having been an athlete most of my life I understand about training muscles, techiques, etc. Being a goalkeeper, I also understand some skills and decisions only get better with time and experience. I had to learn to drop my fear and become very focused playing in goal. However, being older and having a desk job for many years, I think I would have better fighting(kung fu) skills now if I had started with tai chi and I-Chuan training. My mind/body connection had gotten weak. It has gotten better, but my sifu still yells at me to relax, breath, and work on my balance.

My sifu does try to work on the internal and one of our styles TCPM has more internal aspects than one would think. The more I study though, the more I'm finding out that this is true for many martial arts. I really enjoy the writings of my kung fu uncle, Professor Randy Choy. He has an amazing martial arts background/training but also has real life experience in what works. I started reading article by his friend and mentor Sifu Gregory Fong and learned enough about standing training to wish I had someone around here I could learn from. Also the writings by and about Henry Gong's "Lower Spinal Rotation" sparked more understanding. I think that tai chi and I-Chuan training would have smoothed the way for what I've been taught in the past three years.

I guess what I am saying is that I believe a person becomes more deadly in his chosen art's techniques when he can understand/feel/implement the mind-body connection enough so it becomes the solid foundation that supports the style's priciples and techniques learned.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Does Bagua even have it's own techniques? I thought it just used everyone else's techniques and put them on it's own framework of really slick evasive footwork.

[WinterPalm]

Have heard that BJJ has advanced techniques. More just setups and counters with complex sequences of potentials...sort of like chess at a higher level.

In kung fu we train the basics on a daily basis. They will always be a part of it. But a punch thrown on day one and day seven thousand is going to be vastly different. The setups are the most crucial thing. That is more advanced. In order to get proper instruction you need that advanced level of understanding in order to make these things work. AGainst an untrained bum you might be able to have a basic punch and kick combo, but against better skilled fighters and people with an understanding, you need to be able to utilize the techniques in a variety of ways.

However, from day one we are training what we are training at day seven thousand, it is only that your understanding and ability to use it at that point has changed.

The system I do has core sets with the fundamental fighting techniques. There are several developmental sets that train and shape the body to be able to execute these techniques effectively.

In training sparring I work a wide range of techniques to try and work on new things and make sense of a plethora of material. When it comes to hard sparring or competition preperation, I focus on those things I do well and try to use them as best I can.

If we compare a program geared towards reality combat, let's use Tony Blauer, and then compare it to muay Thai training, they are both very different but equally attempting to prepare the students for what they expect to encounter. Nothing wrong with that.

And yes, there is a lot of nonsense out there. Magical applications to things that just wouldn't happen...most of the time the quickest and most direct and damaging reaction is the best one. But you might need something else if that doesn't work!

[David Jamieson]

I would add that some kungfu peeps hae not gotten to the stage where they seperate what is qigong from what is attack/defense.

and yes, shore up the toolbox, you might have a lot of different screwdrivers and wrenchs, but you probably use the philips or robertson the most and the 1/2 and 7/16th inch wrenches the most. So out of a 200 piece toolkit, you can and do use effectively maybe 4 or 5 of those tools.

analogize that into your fighting style, YOUR fighting style and see what happens after a month or two.

it will change you ability and build your true attributes as a fighter.

[gwa sow]

i was wondering how often you guys spar. and how often do you see students using the techniques/applications while sparring. sometimes we have a hard time getting students that actually want to train to fight/spar. usually a lot of "forms collectors"

[fopah]

I would add that some kungfu peeps hae not gotten to the stage where they seperate what is qigong from what is attack/defense.

and yes, shore up the toolbox, you might have a lot of different screwdrivers and wrenchs, but you probably use the philips or robertson the most and the 1/2 and 7/16th inch wrenches the most. So out of a 200 piece toolkit, you can and do use effectively maybe 4 or 5 of those tools.

analogize that into your fighting style, YOUR fighting style and see what happens after a month or two.

it will change you ability and build your true attributes as a fighter.

But at the same time, everyonce in awhile the only thing that will work is that ****ed metric crooked 7mm telescoping ratchet.

cost me twenty bucks and i've used it once, but there was seirously no other tool that would work.

[SevenStar]

The challenge match video got me thinking, why do all these guys go "I'll beat you with my deadly techniques"? None of them go "I'll beat him with my strong fundamentals, good striking and bridging and clinching skills", which, if I was to fight in a challenge match is kinda what I'd be relying on.
I saw this recently and it got me thinking
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P_T0WLoI6pk
My own system has ten seeds, foundation principles that the whole system is based on. Every technique is derived from these ten seeds. There are advanced forms, but these don't really involve advanced techniques, it's the fundamentals linked in a more challenging way. There are certainly no advanced applications, again just combinations of fundamental skills. Ironically it's often the simplest of apps that require the most skill to pull off well. Now obviously we have structure and progression, and we have a lot of techniques, so how can I square that with the linked statement? As i've said, we really only have ten techniques, we just have different ways to do them. Just like a boxer learns how to work the angles and timings with his punches, just like the BJJ guy learns how to uses his passes and reguards to gain better positions, then learns how to link them into holds, then learns to create linked progressions.
Now I know that other Chinese systems have similar sets of core fundamentals, so why is the "deadly, advanced techniques" attitude so widespread (especially as it's fairly easy to highlight cases where a good right cross has been a deadly technique)? Is it a Chinese thing from Wuxia novels and Kung fu movies? Or is it a western phenomenum? I know you often here teachers in the MA press saying that teachers held stuff back, which has diluted the effectiveness of kung fu. What did they hold back that could possibly be that great, and which people couldn't figure out through live training with the fundamentals?
There's also the western story about the wrestling champion who teaches his student his 100 techniques, and then when the student challenges him and he beats him easily with the 101st technique which he hadn't taught. Again, if he'd learned the hundred well, he really shouldn't have been unable to counter the 101st. i've kinda run out of steam now, I'll try to add some more lucid stuff in a bit

Here's what I think - deadly techniques sell - or at least they used to. Everyone wants to search for THE technique. You know... the one that will allow them to win at all costs no matter who they are fighting or their present level of skill. That's why there used to be so many articles in magazines about dim mak and other things, and why people made money selling pamphlets about "hikuta" and other "learn to fight in 24 hours" crap.

[TenTigers]

I don't think I've ever used a robertson head screwdriver. They seem almost like hex keys, only square?

[Knifefighter]

Do sport arts have advanced techniques? Of course they do.

A beginner in BJJ isn't close to ready to apply the various umoplata finishes and sweeps, let alone combining them with things like figure 4 footlocks. A beginning wrestler is not ready to be able to pull off low single leg attacks, let alone being able to fathom all the follow ups to that attack. It takes quite a lot of wrestling experience to be able to pull off a suplex... that's just not something a beginner can pull off. Upper cuts in boxing are quite advanced. You will rarely, if ever, see a beginning boxer who has a clue on how to set up and throw upper cuts. Same with the chopping head/neck kicks from Muay Thai.

And while it may be true that some of the best guys are masters at relatively few numbers of offensive techniques, they are almost always be masters at knowing how to counter ALL the other techniques that might be thrown at them.

As far as deadly techniques, forget the secret pressure points, dim mak or any of the other B.S. Want to killl someone for real? Just learn how to do chokes. There is nothing you can do with your bare hands that is more deadly or as high percentage as just holding a choke fully applied for a couple of minutes.

[rogue]

Want to killl someone for real? Just learn how to do chokes. There is nothing you can do with your bare hands that is more deadly or as high percentage as just holding a choke fully applied for a couple of minutes.

Yup, but that is assuming that you have a couple of minutes. (Somebody had to say it) I've started working some chokes in during live sparring and was surprised at how easy they were to get against the average karate guy. I'm seriously thinking of looking for a BJJ school in the coming year.