any ideas you'd like to share for fighting a TKD guy

[monkeyfoot]

So I got a challenge from some BB TKD guy who said he wanted to 'see kung fu work' blah blah and he reckons TKD is superior.

I train both QiXing and Wingchun so figured i'd try to give him a run for his money. From what I've seen TKD guys have a hella a sloppy guard and are only really effective from long range....so I figured move quick and fast to bridge the gap and get in close using some form of chain punch/fan chie motion then takedown/chin na. Maybe stick to the legs aswell so he cant use them.

I nailed one of his mates roundhouse a few days ago with a double forarm block/ double punch to the face/solar plex, so Im pretty confident here.

Anyways, I was just interested in how you would fight in terms of tactics and techniques, and anything else you think works.

craig

[TaichiMantis]

We face them in karate point sparring tourneys. They like to go for head shot kicks. It's easy to slip in and get a groin shot and/or catch/hook/redirect the leg and take their center. I've put a few on their butts that way.

[Sifu Darkfist]

the style is a reactionary style with complex strikes derived out of response to your motion.
The way to defuse the tkd defense is to force it to face overwhelming strike numbers. Most combinations are between 1- 3 strikes however you are a 7 star player and should already be training 5.

if you are close that already takes his kicks away so no worries there. 7 star and wc are infighting systems. However most experts in these arts relent after a combination and this is a grave mistake. you need to attack with subsequent combinations until there is no longer a threat. Never underestimate Korean or Japanese hands. they are refined and strike well directly (that is if his TKD is the real deal).

I myself would consider his challenge a threat to my life and families welfare and probably stab him or something much more grotesque when he is close enough to feel my breath, however i am married with girls that need a father and 37 years old to boot.

Modern day challenges are illegal just remember this, the only confrontation that is legal are those engaged in to save your own well being.

I suggest you never accept, you only protect.

[Shaolinlueb]

tell them "you're grandmaster said you tuition check bounced" and when he turns to check, punch him in the head.

[yu shan]

LOL, that`s good Lueb!

[monkeyfoot]

Many thanks for the feedback,

I took your advice darkfist and have been running over various combination attacks and takedowns. Im gonna work in the ole 7* foot whereever I can to disrupt his balance and take away the use of his legs. Dont worry though, this is not a threat to my life and from what I know, we aren't going to try to kill each other....but thanks for the heads up anyhow

Yushan - re sweeping - yep it works a treat when they go for head shots. Well timed chest / front kicks have taken them down too.

I arranged to meet him this thursday. Fingers crossed all goes to plan. Ill report back and give the lowdown as and when.

craig

[mantis108]

I agreed with a lot of what is said.

I believe there are 2 types of TKD (WTF and ITF?). One is more "traditional" and the other is olympic oriented, which is the one almost entirely no hands at all plus they like high kicks to the head.

Now, I am not sure if you have agreed upon a format already. As long as "anything goes" goes you shouldn't have to worry about TKD if you don't stay in the long range. Their fancy kicks usually open them up for takedowns. Having said that, I am current working out with a person who's soon to acquire his olympic TKD coaching certificate. He also trained in Karate as well. So besides his beautiful kicks his takedowns are pretty good as well. The point is there is a difference between a olympic TKD purist and progressive TKD stylist.

Personally, I favor the "anything goes" (without dirty tactics of course) for this type of honorable duel (?) contest. I would rather not fuss about anything fancy and make a direct and forceful entry, take him down and finish off. IMHO, their kicks aren't as damaging as the Muay Thai kicks. As long as you don't flinch or lay back, be aggressive and take it like a man (sorry ladies). You don't have a problem once you are in close quarter unless he trains other stuff. To simply put it, take the fight away from him by forceful entry.

Well, good luck and may the best man wins.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

As long as "anything goes" goes you shouldn't have to worry about TKD if you don't stay in the long range.

Of course they are trying not to let you in either

Don't underestimate your opponent. If he's good, his kicks can be as fast as your hands. Keep your hands up and don't get popped in the head.

TKD has more plyometric training than most Mantis I've seen. They make a point to work their rapid fire explosive kick combinations.

Brendan Lai said that he thought Hee Il Cho's kicks were as fast as his own hands.

[Chop Socki]

I hate to generalize, since every student (and, to some extent, every instructor) will emphasize their strengths and train the most dilligently in whatevery aspect of their style appeals to them, but one factor that I've noticed in many TKD stylists that I've faced is what I consider to be a 'too relaxed' recovery of kicks. Yes, they throw them with great zeal... but then they just sort of 'fall back onto them', which differs from my own training that emphasizes recovering a strike as fast as it was thrown.

So... having said that, one thing you may find effective is the follow up of your opponent's kick with a leg hock delivered at ankle height. Don't think about a big 'lifting' hook or sweep with an accompanying hand technique - just establish the range after you block the kick and time it so that as he's putting his weight back on the kicking (front) foot, you hook it behind the ankle and pull it towards you.

I've been able to do that effectively enough - and often enough - that my opponent becomes hesitant to lift his front leg off the ground, and for a TKD fighter, that's pretty much the equivalent of surrender.

Good luck, keep it civil and try to learn from the experience.

- CS

ps: TKD does have hand techniques, they're just relatively simple. A straight punch is a very effective partner with a round kick.

[monkeyfoot]

Robert - thanks for the background info. Im not entirely sure what his TKD is geared towards, but by the look of his friends when I saw them spar, I would probably say olympic/competitive TKD

Rules so far are anything goes (bar dirty fighting of course), not sure whether its mitts or wraps, anything else im not fussed about. Mantis has enough techniques to adapt to whatever situation, and if I win with his rules....even better.

I did some background research (know your enemy kinda stuff ) and some of his TKD brothers said he likes fast snappy kicks to the lower body followed with fast punches. Im guessing these would most probably be straights, so ill be working the Ou Lou Tsai, intercepts and invitation of the white apes followed by sweeps/takedowns. Will try a bit of leg hooking/sticking as mentioned above aswell.

Its funny you mention Muay Thai. I have a friend who cross trains Wingchun/muaythai and will be bringing him along for good measure. Be interesting to see how those two fair.

So, battleplan so far seems pretty tight. I am very grateful for the reassurence/advice from you guys.....hopefully it goes well and I change some minds.

[mantis108]

Hi Norman,

I hear you.

Hi Craig,

Sounds like you have done all your homework already. Please keep us inform about the matches including your Muay Thai friends. It would be interesting matches I am sure. BTW, are you going to film and post them on Youtube? Love to see you guys in action.

Warm regards

Robert

[SaintSage]

My primary training is in TKD. We are at about equal skill level, so it makes for great matches.

It's been said before, but get inside. At long range, the TKD guy will do his best to keep you there. Get inside and overwhelm him with hand techs. Follow him, keep it close. Fast hands coming in at different angles will confuse him, and he'll try to jump back with a roundhouse, stay close.

Be careful with leg sweeps. Watch his kicks first. If he's rooted and only delivers kicks he think will connect, a sweep may be risky. I've been hit in the leg with a sweep, but it didn't knock me off balance because I stayed rooted.

His roundhouse will be telegraphed by his hip. If you can move at an angle to avoid the kick his groin will be wide open. If you know any throws, use them while he retracts his kick, his balance will be awkward.

[wiz cool c]

If you're a mantis guy I would say keep catching his leg and throwing him. You guys have a lot of catching and grabbing and sweeps in your system right.

[monkeyfoot]

Morning people

Bit of a change in plan. We met up yesterday but my muay thai friends couldn't make it, so we decided postpone till mid next week.

I did have a light spar with one of the TKD guys just to make my hour long warm up worth it. It was an interesting experience having never sparred outside of the mantis/wingchun circle and was different to how I imagined. Somewhat aprehensive at first I stayed at a medium range and very nearly took a roundhouse headshot because of it. I literally got a double forarm block up just in time to prevent it connecting. I thought about what you guys said and stormed him with chain punches as he retreated a good 10-12 feet using a 'bar arm' type block to stop them connecting. From there it got pretty tight and eventually led to a little 7* trip which got his ass on the floor. I was pretty annoyed with myself as there were better ways in which I could have dealt with the bar arm that was blocking my chain punches.....but in the heat of the moment it doesn't always come to you.

Anyways I learn't from the mistakes of the first bout and in the second one stuck to his lead leg like a b!tch. He found it very difficult to retreat/make space to kick as I'd hook round his ankle with my lead leg. I chain punched him again to bridge the gap and he followed with a quick retreat/bararm as before. This time I knocked it up with my left and drilled into his side with a drilling fist / horse stance (which I was quite pleased with to be honest )

He also had some good stuff under his belt. He nearly had me again with the kicking feints. He went to throw a left roundhouse but didnt extend the leg, and insted carried on rotating and fired out a right side kick. I barely dodged the thing

Anyways. We shared some techs and demonstarted some katas/weapon forms to finish off. This pre-match definately put things in perspective for me. I underestimated TKD in some areas (hands etc) and I think this made me less successful than I could have been.

Ill see how I fair next week

Craig

ps: mantis108 - I did mention getting a video but one of them seemed hesitant. I will ask again on the day.

[racerX]

Watch for the lead leg that's how they set up alot of there combo's,dont' charge right in with hands, good way to get broken ribs, side step move in at a 45% unroot that way.