Famous masters who didn't start young.

**The Xia** · 08-14-2007, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

it becomes an issue when they say LSW closed his hands in 1925.

Ah, so there's the clincher

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

here's the deal; the "kickboxing" you see at a lot of tournaments is actually how a lot of folks actually train at their school. The sparring is seen as something different from the rest of the style. They practice watered down kickboxing; without the strategy or finer points of technique, on the heavybags and in sparring at school. That's why they bust out with it at tourneys.

That being said, using the style for real will still look like a lot of straight punches, looping punches, kicks, and throws; not that different from san da.
So when you use the stuff for real, you're not going to be doing those complicated, 15 move counters you see a lot of people explaining as the moves from their forms. You're also probably not going to see a lot of overly low stances. You may see some of the "strange" hand shapes or finger strikes- but only if those tools have been hardened to withstand the impact.

If you drill the basics from your style enough, making contact with stuff like focus mitts & the heavy bag, and then figure out how to use it in in-school sparring, you're not going to abandon it as soon as you turn up the heat in a fight.

This whole "well that's sport" argument is a little crazy to me. Back in the day you had to accept all comers before being allowed to open a school. If you weren't good enough, you didn't get to open. If you didn't teach well enough, when your #1 took over answering challenges for you as you got older, you'd get shut down.
That level of quality control has been lost. Fighting competitions are about the only legal way to get it back.

I can agree with rule changes however. Boxing doesn't allow backfists, spinning techniques, hammer fists and ain't big on overhand stuff. Sometimes boxing rules get imported into kickboxing & mma venues- thus disallowing some of the punches that are bread n butter for some styles. Open palm may be frowned upon in certain venues as well. That's why i suggested more open kuoshu rules with daido juku helmets so the rules could be opened up without worrying too much about insurance rates & blood baths.

You are right about why students often resort to bad kickboxing. What you train is what will come out. I agree with your San Da statement in some cases (like a lot of the Buk Sing Choy Li Fut fighters, for example), but not in all. You can see Choy Li Fut fist seeds in Buk Sing sport fights. Needless to say, they still wouldn't be using panther fists for obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean they can't either. I would say that it really depends on just who it is that's using the style. A high level practitioner should be able to use beyond basic applications. That takes a lot of proper training though. Ditto for the hand weapons you mentioned. I get a laugh when MMA trolls bash finger strikes, clawing, etc because I know what well conditioned hands feel like. I agree that pads and focus mitts are great, but I feel that two-man work is very important. And when it comes to short-hand, that's something that has to be transmitted from teacher to student. I have no problem with combat sport, but I wouldn't neglect everything else and lose the art.

**Pork Chop** · 08-14-2007, 04:35 PM

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that southern shorts wouldn't be getting the transmission from the hands, i mean that's the whole point.
Two man stuff's integral.
The only thing I don't like is the apps where the "attacker" leaves his arm out there forever while the other guy does like 10 different techniques to him.
That's the stuff that's impossible to pull of for real and the first stuff that goes out the window when the fight heats up.

True, arts that use a lot of fingers and open palms aren't going to look like san da, old school, bas rutten era pancrase fights might be more applicable; but it'll defintely have it's own flavor. It won't look the same as the other stuff out there; it just won't have a lot of the pretty shaw brothers poses a lot of people may be expecting.

I believe in training all your tools and then only using what's safe in competition.
My Thai gym in VA did a lot of illegal moves in practice- elbows to the head, stomping knee joint, etc - but sparred & fought with what is/was legal; not that they couldn't pull out the other stuff if need-be.

Bareknuckle boxing looks/looked a lot different than the gloved variety. The training had a decent amount of iron palm stuff. Gloves lead to stuff like hammerfists & backfists being taken out. For kung fu to look like it's supposed to, I think implementing some format of small/mma/no gloves is important. Kuoshu lei tai or mma format would be a nice start. Yeah I know sport's different, but the nice thing about being able to do sport is that adrenaline won't make you deviate from your gameplan as much.

**bodhitree** · 08-14-2007, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by The Xia

He's Yang style right?

Actually he's all of the major three (Yang, Wu, Chen)

**The Xia** · 08-14-2007, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that southern shorts wouldn't be getting the transmission from the hands, i mean that's the whole point.
Two man stuff's integral.

That's something I think more people should realize.

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

The only thing I don't like is the apps where the "attacker" leaves his arm out there forever while the other guy does like 10 different techniques to him.
That's the stuff that's impossible to pull of for real and the first stuff that goes out the window when the fight heats up.

I don't like that stuff either. That's not good form breakdown, that's bull**** demos to wow people that don't know any better. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the ole "Ok so you go to punch me", *person sticks his arm out and other guy begins doing a long combination of strikes, locks, and breaks while person pretends he is directing traffic*, "So that's what I do when someone goes to hit me," person "Woah! That's the real deal!"

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

True, arts that use a lot of fingers and open palms aren't going to look like san da, old school, bas rutten era pancrase fights might be more applicable; but it'll defintely have it's own flavor. It won't look the same as the other stuff out there; it just won't have a lot of the pretty shaw brothers poses a lot of people may be expecting.

You know, as much as it's become sheik to criticize Shaw Bros. MA choreography, it's a lot better then most of the other stuff that's around. You can see real Kung Fu in them as opposed to what's around in movies today. The fights in those movies were pretty much dramatic, stylized two-man sparring drills. I think this is a good example of what Kung Fu should look like in application.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

I believe in training all your tools and then only using what's safe in competition.
My Thai gym in VA did a lot of illegal moves in practice- elbows to the head, stomping knee joint, etc - but sparred & fought with what is/was legal; not that they couldn't pull out the other stuff if need-be.

There seems to be so few Muay Thai schools doing that.

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

Bareknuckle boxing looks/looked a lot different than the gloved variety. The training had a decent amount of iron palm stuff. Gloves lead to stuff like hammerfists & backfists being taken out.

I didn't know that. The MMA crowd would have you believe that old bareknuckle boxing was crappy. Not that I believed it.

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

For kung fu to look like it's supposed to, I think implementing some format of small/mma/no gloves is important. Kuoshu lei tai or mma format would be a nice start. Yeah I know sport's different, but the nice thing about being able to do sport is that adrenaline won't make you deviate from your gameplan as much.

That and there'd be far less maiming and/or killing.

Which is why I'd support the helmets you were talking about as well. I'd still keep a lot of stuff illegal for obvious reasons. A good example of a group that trains TMA correctly but also has success in sport MA is Fu Jow Pai. They develop very strong tiger claws, but even though they can't use them in sport, they've had some very successful ring fighters.

**The Xia** · 08-14-2007, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by bodhitree

Actually he's all of the major three (Yang, Wu, Chen)

Thanks. Thought he was only Yang for some reason.

**Pork Chop** · 08-15-2007, 04:23 PM

Shaw brothers really depends on the movie.
Some not bad, some REALLY bad.

I've always had a soft spot for SPM. Always wanted to learn but never lived near any teachers. I like some of the stuff on this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg
But I would probably stress that each of those moves occurs in a split second and an opponent is more likely to retract his hand a bit further after every attempted attack.

My old thai gym went as far as to fly in a general from thailand to teach bareknuckle stuff; eventhough they were mostly a sport gym.
A lot of the bareknuckle stuff gets you more money if you pull it off in a fight in thailand, so it's kept alive in a lot of camps for that reason.

Old bareknuckle boxing wasn't crappy for sure.
It looked different, but to say it was ineffective would be a lie.
You don't have 2 or 300 fights without knowing how to scrap.
Just watch good ole' John L, the last of the bareknuckle champs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIfcYJpUig0
You can kinda see the strategy based on fakes and unexpected angles.

Some more examples of the early gloved style (based heavily on bareknuckle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFdL5VkcQM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CCU3pnlEOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO2dTnFl2Z0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMA6Pd6tT3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfQwLykgKGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuJOY6-fQMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_0apiSy_IE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGSVW1Ft-Bg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhljVYJ9NKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbZ8Mb0MdT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI8mVLPbvLw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2jOpoecfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CauVMvNspIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsB3O0JnBjI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa0GNDAP8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhfU-Qi4Blw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TTCPz0nBeY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUjVK6Lsj28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2hqeoDJYdc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJGCTySChDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4iBHrHTf-k

Russian vid, what's this look like to you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jAqd6YeC10

I know that's a ton of videos but there's some GOLD in there... Sam Langford, Henry Wills, Dempsey, Jim Jeffries, Corbett, Fitz, Henry Armstrong, Joe Gans, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard... Some of the best boxing has to offer. And just to preempt any teasing about the old style, i think the heavyweights give any of the 70s legends problems - and most boxing historians agree the 70s greats walk through anybody around these days.

**The Xia** · 08-15-2007, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

Shaw brothers really depends on the movie.
Some not bad, some REALLY bad.

It depends on the actors and choreographers. Personally, I like Gordon Liu and Lau Kar Leung. But even with cast and crew that aren't as up to shape on MA as they are, I still prefer them over contemporary Wushu action.

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

I've always had a soft spot for SPM. Always wanted to learn but never lived near any teachers. I like some of the stuff on this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg
But I would probably stress that each of those moves occurs in a split second and an opponent is more likely to retract his hand a bit further after every attempted attack.

Except with someone like Mark Foon doing those moves, that guy would be finished before the impulse to retract even hits him!

Here is an old demo with various Jook Lum stylists and Kwan Tak Hing. Mark Foon is the last performance and shows some serious speed.
The lion dancing ends at 1:53.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4gf97u1mhg

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

Didn't get through all of them, but I liked what I saw. They have a completely different style then modern boxers. Some very different manuevering and punching. I especially like the wide-arc flurry that Dempy floored his opponant with. Never saw anything like that from modern boxers. Is there anybody in this country seriously (as in excluding LARPers) training old style boxing?

**Pork Chop** · 08-16-2007, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by The Xia

It depends on the actors and choreographers. Personally, I like Gordon Liu and Lau Kar Leung. But even with cast and crew that aren't as up to shape on MA as they are, I still prefer them over contemporary Wushu action.

The only saving grace that I'll give the wushu stuff is that at least it tends to be fast. Otherwise, yeah, Lau Ga Fei and Lau Ga Leung are 2 of the best. I like Chen Kwan Tai too.

Is there anybody in this country seriously (as in excluding LARPers) training old style boxing?

Dempsey's Championship Fighting book is available out there on the net- people basically transcribed it because hard copies were so rare & expensive. That book does a decent job of collecting the body of knowledge existing in his lifetime. Dempsey did Judo, wrestling and some JJ, so I think he woulda been cool with MMA. There are a few camps training old school bareknuckle methods but I can't really comment on their quality. The book can definitely give you the basics.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that what made dempsey great was that he could knock folks out with almost anything. He still has the highest KO percentage in boxing, even better than prime Tyson. His shots at 4 to 6 inches were just as deadly as his long hooks and his straight jolts. People tried to cry foul in his destruction of Jess Willard, but the guy's sparring partner (boxing hall of famer Big Bill Tate) was 6'7 and arguably bigger than the klitschkos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

**dharmastudent** · 08-16-2007, 02:55 PM

Didn't Yang Chen Fu start later in life too? If I remember right he didn't show much of an interest in taiji when he was younger, but got into it later in life.

**Chosen-frozen** · 08-16-2007, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by dharmastudent

Didn't Yang Chen Fu start later in life too? If I remember right he didn't show much of an interest in taiji when he was younger, but got into it later in life.

While he wasn`t interested in tai chi his father pushed him into trainingfrom an early age. The reason he wasn`t interested was because the training he and his brother went through was so intense. His father didn`t let up on them until Cheng Fu had run away and attempted suicide to get out of training.

I don`t have a copy anymore but "Asian Fighting Arts" by Drager and Smith had alot of biographies of late 19th and early 20th century Chinese masters. I remember them mentioning a Hsing-I master who became a famous bodyguard and teacher. He hadn`t begun any martial arts training until he was in his 50`s.

**Grizzlygrime** · 08-18-2007, 01:48 PM

My Si-gung, Grandmaster Ip Chun i belive didnt begin training until he was 36 years old

**John Takeshi** · 08-19-2007, 06:04 AM

http://www.danielsterlingmartialarts..._sterling.html

Can anyone verify this information?!

I've been using Daniel Sterling as role model for all of my students, and never knew he had ties to the Kogo Ryu's!

Is this true? Can it be?

**brianK** · 08-19-2007, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

Dempsey's Championship Fighting book is available out there on the net- people basically transcribed it because hard copies were so rare & expensive. That book does a decent job of collecting the body of knowledge existing in his lifetime. Dempsey did Judo, wrestling and some JJ, so I think he woulda been cool with MMA. There are a few camps training old school bareknuckle methods but I can't really comment on their quality. The book can definitely give you the basics.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that what made dempsey great was that he could knock folks out with almost anything. He still has the highest KO percentage in boxing, even better than prime Tyson. His shots at 4 to 6 inches were just as deadly as his long hooks and his straight jolts. People tried to cry foul in his destruction of Jess Willard, but the guy's sparring partner (boxing hall of famer Big Bill Tate) was 6'7 and arguably bigger than the klitschkos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

Dempsey's book is great. I swear the man was practicing a front-weighted variant on xingyi.

Brian

**The Xia** · 08-19-2007, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

The only saving grace that I'll give the wushu stuff is that at least it tends to be fast. Otherwise, yeah, Lau Ga Fei and Lau Ga Leung are 2 of the best. I like Chen Kwan Tai too.

I actually prefer non-Wushu crappy martial arts action. At least the goofiness of the actors becomes a source of humor. Also, I find that everything doesn't meld into one bland mesh that's indistinguishable from the next. It may be crap, but it looks like different crap lol.

Originally Posted by Pork Chop

Dempsey's Championship Fighting book is available out there on the net- people basically transcribed it because hard copies were so rare & expensive. That book does a decent job of collecting the body of knowledge existing in his lifetime. Dempsey did Judo, wrestling and some JJ, so I think he woulda been cool with MMA. There are a few camps training old school bareknuckle methods but I can't really comment on their quality. The book can definitely give you the basics.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that what made dempsey great was that he could knock folks out with almost anything. He still has the highest KO percentage in boxing, even better than prime Tyson. His shots at 4 to 6 inches were just as deadly as his long hooks and his straight jolts. People tried to cry foul in his destruction of Jess Willard, but the guy's sparring partner (boxing hall of famer Big Bill Tate) was 6'7 and arguably bigger than the klitschkos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

I didn't know that Dempsey did other arts. I knew he had a book out. I heard good things about it.

**The Xia** · 08-19-2007, 11:05 PM

A lot of stories about martial artists from long ago seem to indicate later starts. Hung Hei Goon was said to be a tea merchant before entering the Shaolin Temple. Som Dot's story indicates that he wasn't a child when he started Kung Fu. San Te's story as depicted in "Master Killer" also fits the bill.

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