Famous masters who didn't start young.

[The Xia]

Most of the big names in TCMA seem to have started in their early teens or as children. I'm curious as to how many started later then that. Any names?

[The Xia]

Chan Hon Chung is a good example. He moved to Hong Kong at 19 and trained very hard at Lam Sai Wing's kwoon while he held down a job as a street vendor.

[The Xia]

ttt.............

[Pork Chop]

Chan Hon Chung is a good example. He moved to Hong Kong at 19 and trained very hard at Lam Sai Wing's kwoon while he held down a job as a street vendor.

chan hon chung started when he was 12; according to his own family's site.
There are some ummm discrepancies on the Lam family site, where they consider him a grand-student; even though he's got a disciple ceremony picture. Not to mention the fact that he and the Chius both opened up schools 5 years before LSW passed away (ample time for any discrepancies to be corrected).

chiu kau found lam sai wing relatively late in life, after studying with other hung gar folks beforehand.

depending on the source, lam sai wing found wong fei hung relatively late in life; though lam sai wing had studied other styles first.

Sun lu tang started guo yun shen at 21 and started with chen ting hua at 30. He too learned other stuff early on in life.

Lam Yiu Kwai became a dragon stylist as an adult- 23 according to the wiki, after already being a teacher in another style of kung fu.

Law Gwong Yuk of mantis fame didn't start training with Fan Yuk Tong until he was 20.

Chiu Chi Man, also of mantis fame, started studying at Ging Mo at the age of 23 and started studying under Law Gwong Yuk at the age of 29- becoming a teacher by age 32, opening up his own school by 37.

A lot of big names started out in different styles before finding where they really fit as adults. But other styles is not really a requirement either. Not everyone grows up with the stuff. Just gotta practice hard.

I imagine it's a similar situation to boxers- some of whom don't get into boxing until their late 20s, but still manage to go pro. In the case of boxers, usually heavyweights have an easier time getting started late than the lighter weights. Though one of the most skilled boxers I knew in Baltimore was around 160 and started in his late 30s, early 40s - just kept at it for a few years.

The big difference with kung fu is if you were already doing something and someone beats you real bad, you tend to drop what you were doing to learn what you just got beat with.

[bodhitree]

Jou Tsung Hua (sp?) started taiji in late 40's.

[The Xia]

chan hon chung started when he was 12; according to his own family's site.
There are some ummm discrepancies on the Lam family site, where they consider him a grand-student; even though he's got a disciple ceremony picture. Not to mention the fact that he and the Chius both opened up schools 5 years before LSW passed away (ample time for any discrepancies to be corrected).

This the one?
http://www.kungfu.co.uk/chan.htm
Yeah, I went by the hungkuen.net bio.
I wonder which one it is.
Anyway, I always found him to be inspirational because so many people from all styles shut themselves down by talking about how all the "old" masters had more time to practice and started as kids, that they have jobs, school, started later, etc. Here you have Chan Hon Chung, of the "old" generation, that held down a job that was probably more hectic then most people have today, and didn't (if the hungkuen.net bio is true) start as a kid.

chiu kau found lam sai wing relatively late in life, after studying with other hung gar folks beforehand.

depending on the source, lam sai wing found wong fei hung relatively late in life; though lam sai wing had studied other styles first.

Sun lu tang started guo yun shen at 21 and started with chen ting hua at 30. He too learned other stuff early on in life.

Lam Yiu Kwai became a dragon stylist as an adult- 23 according to the wiki, after already being a teacher in another style of kung fu.

Law Gwong Yuk of mantis fame didn't start training with Fan Yuk Tong until he was 20.

Chiu Chi Man, also of mantis fame, started studying at Ging Mo at the age of 23 and started studying under Law Gwong Yuk at the age of 29- becoming a teacher by age 32, opening up his own school by 37.

A lot of big names started out in different styles before finding where they really fit as adults.

Lau Bun and Cheung Lai Chung could be added to that list too. Never really thought about that, but it seems to be a pretty common thing.

But other styles is not really a requirement either. Not everyone grows up with the stuff. Just gotta practice hard.

True. I'm looking for examples though.

I imagine it's a similar situation to boxers- some of whom don't get into boxing until their late 20s, but still manage to go pro. In the case of boxers, usually heavyweights have an easier time getting started late than the lighter weights. Though one of the most skilled boxers I knew in Baltimore was around 160 and started in his late 30s, early 40s - just kept at it for a few years.

The big difference with kung fu is if you were already doing something and someone beats you real bad, you tend to drop what you were doing to learn what you just got beat with.

Didn't Rocky Marciano start in his mid 20s?

[The Xia]

Jou Tsung Hua (sp?) started taiji in late 40's.

He's Yang style right?
If I'm not mistaken, Chen Man Ching started in his 20s.
Both started after getting sick.

[Pork Chop]

This the one?
http://www.kungfu.co.uk/chan.htm
Yeah, I went by the hungkuen.net bio.
I wonder which one it is.

I believe it's a point of contention between the 2(3) families.
As I said, there were 2 schools open years before LSW's death so if there were problems they should've been brought up then, not after the deaths of everyone involved.

Didn't Rocky Marciano start in his mid 20s?

Yeah, he won the armed forces amateur competition in 1946, at age 23 (born 1923), turned pro at 25.
He originally started out playing baseball but was told that his arm was too weak to play catcher (ironically enough).

Earnie Shavers took up boxing at age 22 and is still considered one of the hardest punchers of all time. Fought his first fight after 2 weeks of training.

George foreman started boxing around age 18 and was an Olympic gold medalist by 19, turned pro a year later in 1969 & won his first 13 fights (11 by knock out). On January 22nd 1973 he became champion, destroying Joe Frazier.

What i think is really interesting to note is how it didn't actually take 10 years for a lot of these guys (kung fu masters included) to get real good; which conflicts what you hear in a lot of kung fu schools. Three to 5 years seemed to be the average.

[The Xia]

I believe it's a point of contention between the 2(3) families.
As I said, there were 2 schools open years before LSW's death so if there were problems they should've been brought up then, not after the deaths of everyone involved.

I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with the age Chan Hon Chung started. In order to not veer this discussion into politics, you can PM me about this if you like.

Yeah, he won the armed forces amateur competition in 1946, at age 23 (born 1923), turned pro at 25.
He originally started out playing baseball but was told that his arm was too weak to play catcher (ironically enough).

lol. That's an interesting piece of trivia.

Earnie Shavers took up boxing at age 22 and is still considered one of the hardest punchers of all time. Fought his first fight after 2 weeks of training.

George foreman started boxing around age 18 and was an Olympic gold medalist by 19, turned pro a year later in 1969 & won his first 13 fights (11 by knock out). On January 22nd 1973 he became champion, destroying Joe Frazier.

What i think is really interesting to note is how it didn't actually take 10 years for a lot of these guys (kung fu masters included) to get real good; which conflicts what you hear in a lot of kung fu schools. Three to 5 years seemed to be the average.

I think a lot of that has to do with the way people train. Many people today, even in good schools, don't really practice much on their own and slack off a lot. Compare this to the way that the "old" masters trained and you can see why. Personally, I think a lot of people these days make up excuses when it comes to training and gaining skill. I somehow doubt that these attitudes were that common during the times the "old" masters trained in.

[Pork Chop]

I think I know what you are talking about, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with the age Chan Hon Chung started. In order to not veer this discussion into politics, you can PM me about this if you like.

I don't know specifics and I wasn't there.
But if the guy started at 12 (1921) and opens a school in 1938; that's a huge difference from starting at 19 (1928) and opening a school in 1938.

I think a lot of that has to do with the way people train. Many people today, even in good schools, don't really practice much on their own and slack off a lot. Compare this to the way that the "old" masters trained and you can see why. Personally, I think a lot of people these days make up excuses when it comes to training and gaining skill. I somehow doubt that these attitudes were that common during the times the "old" masters trained in.

Possibly; however I think teachers today do a lot to slow progress- whether intentionally or not. The level used to be higher in years past; but then there seemed to be much more of a sense of community. People spent more time honing their skill to do better, instead of sitting around talking trash about everyone else. Training methods have changed some. Teachers are a lot softer on their students too, i'd imagine. The lei tai & backroom challenges gave way to tournaments and continuous sparring. Not much in the way of quality control anymore as a result.

Personally, I'd like to see kung fu folks do more to embrace kuo shu (lei tai) fighting- maybe update it with the daido juku space helmet instead of the headgear they got and improve the rules about knees & elbows from the clinch. More mma & sanda would be a good thing too. Use the sport competitions as quality control, instead of lineage arguments. Make fighting replace forms as the main focus of training.

[The Xia]

I don't know specifics and I wasn't there.
But if the guy started at 12 (1921) and opens a school in 1938; that's a huge difference from starting at 19 (1928) and opening a school in 1938.

Ok, thanks, now I get what you mean. But to be honest, I don't see either one as that unreasonable.

Possibly; however I think teachers today do a lot to slow progress- whether intentionally or not. The level used to be higher in years past; but then there seemed to be much more of a sense of community. People spent more time honing their skill to do better, instead of sitting around talking trash about everyone else. Training methods have changed some. Teachers are a lot softer on their students too, i'd imagine. The lei tai & backroom challenges gave way to tournaments and continuous sparring. Not much in the way of quality control anymore as a result.

Personally, I'd like to see kung fu folks do more to embrace kuo shu (lei tai) fighting- maybe update it with the daido juku space helmet instead of the headgear they got and improve the rules about knees & elbows from the clinch. More mma & sanda would be a good thing too. Use the sport competitions as quality control, instead of lineage arguments. Make fighting replace forms as the main focus of training.

There are schools that translate their Kung Fu into sport. The problem comes when students aren't taught properly and wind up looking like kickboxers. Personally, I don't consider sport to be the defining quality of TCMA. I have no problem with, and in fact applaud, Kung Fu guys who translate their skills to the mat, lei tai, ring, etc. To me, the ability to use the art as it's meant to be is the defining quality. To have that, forms cannot be the only training method. Other forms of drilling and conditioning are important. Partnerwork is also a must. But when all the smoke is cleared, even if you have schools that do all of these things, it's ultimately up to the student.

[The Xia]

Didn't the Yellow Dragon Monastery start teaching Share Lew when he was 17 or so?

[Pork Chop]

To be honest, I don't see either one as that unreasonable.

it becomes an issue when they say LSW closed his hands in 1925.

There are schools that translate their Kung Fu into sport. The problem comes when students aren't taught properly and wind up looking like kickboxers.

here's the deal; the "kickboxing" you see at a lot of tournaments is actually how a lot of folks actually train at their school. The sparring is seen as something different from the rest of the style. They practice watered down kickboxing; without the strategy or finer points of technique, on the heavybags and in sparring at school. That's why they bust out with it at tourneys.

That being said, using the style for real will still look like a lot of straight punches, looping punches, kicks, and throws; not that different from san da.
So when you use the stuff for real, you're not going to be doing those complicated, 15 move counters you see a lot of people explaining as the moves from their forms. You're also probably not going to see a lot of overly low stances. You may see some of the "strange" hand shapes or finger strikes- but only if those tools have been hardened to withstand the impact.

If you drill the basics from your style enough, making contact with stuff like focus mitts & the heavy bag, and then figure out how to use it in in-school sparring, you're not going to abandon it as soon as you turn up the heat in a fight.

This whole "well that's sport" argument is a little crazy to me. Back in the day you had to accept all comers before being allowed to open a school. If you weren't good enough, you didn't get to open. If you didn't teach well enough, when your #1 took over answering challenges for you as you got older, you'd get shut down.
That level of quality control has been lost. Fighting competitions are about the only legal way to get it back.

I can agree with rule changes however. Boxing doesn't allow backfists, spinning techniques, hammer fists and ain't big on overhand stuff. Sometimes boxing rules get imported into kickboxing & mma venues- thus disallowing some of the punches that are bread n butter for some styles. Open palm may be frowned upon in certain venues as well. That's why i suggested more open kuoshu rules with daido juku helmets so the rules could be opened up without worrying too much about insurance rates & blood baths.

[Pork Chop]

Didn't the Yellow Dragon Monastery start teaching Share Lew when he was 17 or so?

dunno much about the guy, sorry.

[The Xia]

dunno much about the guy, sorry.

That was a general question to the board but thanks.