Questions about Wah Lum.

[Featherstone]

Bruce is great at on the spot, let's do this tonight drilling. I love it and so does the rest of the class, keeps us on our toes. There are of course the basic drills, stances, kicks and punches. He's great at showing how the technique applies as well. On the down side, the class we have is fairly green, some with no previous martial experience what so ever, some who have never even thrown or been punched before. Wide mix of ages as well. I should be in class tomorrow eve if all goes as planned, my attendance has been spotty as of late due to work and family obligations.

[woliveri]

What's critical in a style, any style, is the techniques.

What's also critical in a style, IMO, is the Basics. I'm no longer in Mantis but in Bagua in Shanghai and I can attest the basics of this line of Bagua is tremendous. Hellatious work and more difficult than anything I've tried before. Basics are the "Gong" which build Qi, proper movement, harden the bones, etc.

From my point of view I think Wah Lum has good basics. They developed flexibilty, strength, and taught how to move.

I think this also is the purpose of Forms. To teach a student who has never studied martial arts how to move with Hand/Leg combinations.

Each one is a step built on the previous. The problem with Wah Lum is they didn't take the next step (at least not when I was there) of application training.

And of course, The nilly-willy Form creation and politics is why many left the system but also remember, in Wah Lum's early days, with Master Chan pasted on the front cover of Inside Kung-Fu, there was little else. Especially in central Florida so many of us had no other CMA sources.


Anyway, my 2 cents.

[mantid1]

Citong

Could you do me a favor?

Would you please post some video of your students fighting?

No one from wl has really said they are a "the fighting mantis style"......I wouldnt think they should have the need to prove it.

You have my interest peaked. It sounds like you are now a true mantis fighter now that you are learning the real deal.

So, please post some vid.....I would love to see what to look for in case I have it wrong.

I think it should look like mantis fighting....not just kick boxing. Thats why people train in mantis...right? to use the fighinting methods.

I would like to extend the invitation to other mantis practitioners out there as well. No two person drills or self defense or prearranged forms. If you are in a mantis style you should be able to produce a fighting vid that demonstrates mantis. Then we can let the forum members chime in.

Many people ***** about making up forms...not being mantis....well, I have this to say. If you do teach the "mantis" forms and material but arnt producing people who use mantis techniques in fighting....or produce a simple video of someone from your style fighthing that looks like mantis...

In my eyes you would be worse than the fake mantis school. You have the material at your disposal but cant use it in the way it is meant. Face it...in the end it is about fighting technique. If its not used it is a BS style.

My students do san shou.....look like kick boxers.....and not good ones at that. But at least they fight.

[Citong Shifu]

I've been out of it for quite awhile now so I don't know if anyone still says "Wah Lum power never goes sour" but it was thrown around a lot with a certain group during their time period.





See, this to me is really odd. I don't see the value in where forms come from. I just don't rank forms all that high. What's critical in a style, any style, is the techniques.

Forms are a training aid and it's a good sign of knowing the material if you can create forms. As I see it they should be put together as needed. Worshiping forms is really focusing in the wrong direction and a big waste of time.

Seems like 99% seem to feel there's way too much focus on forms these days and that's what's dragging TCMA down.

A good, knowledgeable instructor should be able to create forms and drills on short order. The better the instructor the better the forms and drills. MC can do both, and I've seen him throw together drills on the spot.

That tells me he knows the techniques, which is more important (to me at least) then having the ability to recites sequences of movements by rote.

You seem like a good guy. I would suggest you focus on what counts, techniques, and not so much on choreography.

And yes, Bruce is out of the system. Been out for awhile. I think most of the guys from my time and before are gone.

Yao Sing,
I never said I worship forms. I think knowing the origin/s of any style/form is very important. Anyone can make up a form or a drill, that doesnt mean anything to me. This is the problem with martial arts today, everyone just makes up their own stuff. Does this show the instructors skills, not at all, I have two year students that can make up forms and drills, hmmmm .

Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wong with throwing forms/drills together when there beneficial or needed for a demo or something, but just to do it to make some cash, well, thats just chop suey....

Anyway, My training has surpassed anything WL had to offer so I'm ok with my art / origin obsession. People want to make up new drills, I'm all for it, people want to make up new forms, well, thats another story. Like my teacher told me, the old masters always made refinements to their style, when needed, but they never changed the entire drill, set, etc. They only found ways to make their art more "EFFICIENT" and updated drills to better enhance the workout, thus providing more skill to the participant. Other times, they would create their own drills or forms, but only after fully understanding their art at the highest levels. Never was it to profit financially.

All I was saying when I first started to respond to this thread is that I spent many years in WL, not 1, 2, or 3 years, but several. I think I know exactly what WL is and always will be.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

Could you do me a favor?

Would you please post some video of your students fighting?

No one from wl has really said they are a "the fighting mantis style"......I wouldnt think they should have the need to prove it.

You have my interest peaked. It sounds like you are now a true mantis fighter now that you are learning the real deal.

So, please post some vid.....I would love to see what to look for in case I have it wrong.

I think it should look like mantis fighting....not just kick boxing. Thats why people train in mantis...right? to use the fighinting methods.

I would like to extend the invitation to other mantis practitioners out there as well. No two person drills or self defense or prearranged forms. If you are in a mantis style you should be able to produce a fighting vid that demonstrates mantis. Then we can let the forum members chime in.

Many people ***** about making up forms...not being mantis....well, I have this to say. If you do teach the "mantis" forms and material but arnt producing people who use mantis techniques in fighting....or produce a simple video of someone from your style fighthing that looks like mantis...

In my eyes you would be worse than the fake mantis school. You have the material at your disposal but cant use it in the way it is meant. Face it...in the end it is about fighting technique. If its not used it is a BS style.

My students do san shou.....look like kick boxers.....and not good ones at that. But at least they fight.

Mantid1,
Let me put something together. I dont really video my classes, never had a reason to, but I'm sure I can put something together. Just to let you know, our sparring doesnt look like typical sparring. We dont trade back and forth thing like boxing, etc. Basically, the best way to explian it is like this, Applications but in a sparring format, lol, if that makes sense... I know this doesnt matter to you, you just want to see the sparring, but you wouldn't believe how many people think that sparring is trading punch, kicks, etc....

I believe 100% that people should use their art for self defense and its nice to hear you bring this point up for discussion. FYI, I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I'll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles... We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style, Efficiency and universal movement.

LOL, I need to figure out this utube thing too . Hopefully others will contribute to your post.

Ron

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

Could you do me a favor?

Would you please post some video of your students fighting?

No one from wl has really said they are a "the fighting mantis style"......I wouldnt think they should have the need to prove it.

You have my interest peaked. It sounds like you are now a true mantis fighter now that you are learning the real deal.

So, please post some vid.....I would love to see what to look for in case I have it wrong.

I think it should look like mantis fighting....not just kick boxing. Thats why people train in mantis...right? to use the fighinting methods.

I would like to extend the invitation to other mantis practitioners out there as well. No two person drills or self defense or prearranged forms. If you are in a mantis style you should be able to produce a fighting vid that demonstrates mantis. Then we can let the forum members chime in.

Many people ***** about making up forms...not being mantis....well, I have this to say. If you do teach the "mantis" forms and material but arnt producing people who use mantis techniques in fighting....or produce a simple video of someone from your style fighthing that looks like mantis...

In my eyes you would be worse than the fake mantis school. You have the material at your disposal but cant use it in the way it is meant. Face it...in the end it is about fighting technique. If its not used it is a BS style.

My students do san shou.....look like kick boxers.....and not good ones at that. But at least they fight.

I would like to see some of your sparring as well. It doesnt have to be your students, you can use footage your techniques. This should be fun... Hopefully the WL peeps on the board will contribute as well, I know the Pong Lai peeps will , they got some great stuff...

[Yao Sing]

What's also critical in a style, IMO, is the Basics.

That's pretty much what I meant when I said techniques. I was talking about the moves themselves having more importance than the choreography.

Yao Sing,
I never said I worship forms.

That's true and I never meant to imply that you do but in my opinion you hold them much higher than I think they deserve.

Don't get me wrong, I see the value in them especially the ones created by the masters but you have to realize at the time they were just teachers and good fighters.

I just think some people (not only you) go a little overboard with purity of forms and lineage. Yes both are important but not as much as some portray.

I've modified some traditional NPM forms and made them more Wah Lum like and if I ever get back to teaching then I intend to teach them that way.

I've been to a few different schools and styles in my life and I haven't found one yet that I agree with everything they teach. That's expected. Not everything is gold and that includes NPM. At least not for me.

What I do is an expression of myself and based on what I've learned over the years. There are moves in Wah Lum that I don't care for or believe to be especially useful so I file them away.

Just so you know, since you seem to feel that forms dictate the style, Wah Lum has Bung Bo and Luan Jie that possibly pre-date the ones you know. There might also be a Baat Jow but I've never inquired about it so I don't know.

So if it has the 3 core forms, with some others added over the years just like the other branches of NPM have done, then why wouldn't it be Mantis?

[Yao Sing]

I would like to see some of your sparring as well. It doesnt have to be your students, you can use footage your techniques. This should be fun... Hopefully the WL peeps on the board will contribute as well, I know the Pong Lai peeps will , they got some great stuff...

If I can find a partner or someone to work with I'll post up some video. Been wanting to get a critique of my modified sets anyhow (preferably honest opinions and not knee-jerk elitist snobbery).

[B-Rad]

Basically, the best way to explian it is like this, Applications but in a sparring format, lol, if that makes sense...

Do you mean like doing two person applications (kind of like one step drills) but in a freestyle format rather than pre-choreographed? Or do you just mean regular hard contact sparring but you pay more attention to using specific techniques you learned rather than doing your best kickboxer impression. Not sure I really understand...

[Citong Shifu]

Do you mean like doing two person applications (kind of like one step drills) but in a freestyle format rather than pre-choreographed? Or do you just mean regular hard contact sparring but you pay more attention to using specific techniques you learned rather than doing your best kickboxer impression. Not sure I really understand...

No, there not two person applications, well they are, but there not. We practice them in pairs as drills, one side does this and the other side does that, but in our sanda sparring its whatever each side does at any given time. Like free form sparring. Reaction vs. reaction, etc. Our goal is stop the other side from attacking. They move, we attack and vice versa (within reason. If nothing needs to be done than we do nothing. When action is required then we act). Its what they call sparring but not whats common today... The goal is to stop the other side from combo'ing, when they move, we shut them down, vice versa. The person with the most skill and understanding will always shut down or cut off the persons attack before they ever get started. Well thats the goal... We believe that fights only happen because the people fighting allow it to progress into a fight. Whe try to take the fight out of the fight. When I record some video footage it will probable make more sense. No, its not the Bruce Lee fight without fighting, lol...

Ron.

[woliveri]

Ron, on your website you have some missing words in your teacher's bio which makes it difficult to read.

[Citong Shifu]

If I can find a partner or someone to work with I'll post up some video. Been wanting to get a critique of my modified sets anyhow (preferably honest opinions and not knee-jerk elitist snobbery).

Yao Sing, I hear you brother. We all have our methods. Mine works great for me, just as yours for you... We're all trying to get to the same place, understanding...

LOL, oh I'm sure we're going to get the snobbery and much more. Its the way of the almighty forum, lol...

Ron.

[Citong Shifu]

Ron, on your website you have some missing words in your teacher's bio which makes it difficult to read.

I seen that. I have my website guy working on it, well, he's suppost to be... I am in the process of having a new website designed. Something more modern and interactive. It seems like the website thing always has something missing or just not there. Wish I could do myself, lol... Was there something you wanted me to answer?

Ron.

[woliveri]

no, I think I can catch the meaning, just wanted to give you a heads up in case you weren't aware.

[mantid1]

Citong

Well as I said before....my fighting isnt based on mantis....more like san shou. I think it is the most efficeint and fastest method to gain experience to defend yourself for a real fight.

Believe me when I tell you this...you dont want to see my guys fight. Most are guys in there late 30's or early 40's doing it because they like the physical contact and enjoy fighinting...not to worried about looking great and being world class fighters. They dont care if it is mantis or not....just what works for them.

The younger generation in my area arnt so interested in taking the lumps you can get while fighting.

I would love to seem some clips...but you said that you teach other styles than mantis but when you fight. You said:

" I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I'll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles... We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style"

If you pretty much approach the fighting in the same manner regardless of style why teach different styles? If you do this your fighting will not be close enough to mantis to be "mantis fighting" it is a mix. The ony thing you would get from teaching different styles is the forms.....no martial benefit at all and if your mantis students arnt learning fighting that isnt mantis specific...then they arnt learning mantis either.

I dont have a problem with that. I enjoy the forms myself. In fact Im not in the chinese arts for the fighting.....I think there are faster ways to become a fighter....muay thai....san shou...

When it comes to others posting video dont wast your time with drills or "techniques in a sparring format". To truly represent your style fighters should be geared up and go for it.....it can be controlled...safety should be the first concern....but that being said you should be able to go at it fairly fast and furious to represent your style using techniques that are clearly from a mantis based style.

There are more than enough clips out there with people trading off in drills....or the instructor knocking the crap out of a student with a pre arranged sequence that the instructor knows much better than the student.

A good example would be the guy on the forum asking advice about fighting a tai kwan do guy. It should be as real as possible with safety in mind...but no limitations like no kicking to the head or legs, no take downs etc...

If the guy really wanted to try out his mantis...he should have just fought and not ask for any pointers...no coachining allowed just use your stuff. That would give a great example.

I hope im not coming across with an attitude. Im sure you have a great school.

But, when it comes down to people talking about other schools if they are traditional or not I think the only way to prove it is to show the final product. If some one was saying the same things about your school I would chime in and say the same things on your behalf.

The knee problem issue...well do you would not believe the amount of people I have met who has had knee surgery....and never studied the arts a day in their lives.

As far as I am concerned....Im not so worried about fighting anymore. I just want to have a happy and healthy life.