Questions about Wah Lum.

[Citong Shifu]

Citong

Well as I said before....my fighting isnt based on mantis....more like san shou. I think it is the most efficeint and fastest method to gain experience to defend yourself for a real fight.

Believe me when I tell you this...you dont want to see my guys fight. Most are guys in there late 30's or early 40's doing it because they like the physical contact and enjoy fighinting...not to worried about looking great and being world class fighters. They dont care if it is mantis or not....just what works for them.

The younger generation in my area arnt so interested in taking the lumps you can get while fighting.

I would love to seem some clips...but you said that you teach other styles than mantis but when you fight. You said:

" I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I'll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles... We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style"

If you pretty much approach the fighting in the same manner regardless of style why teach different styles? If you do this your fighting will not be close enough to mantis to be "mantis fighting" it is a mix. The ony thing you would get from teaching different styles is the forms.....no martial benefit at all and if your mantis students arnt learning fighting that isnt mantis specific...then they arnt learning mantis either.

I dont have a problem with that. I enjoy the forms myself. In fact Im not in the chinese arts for the fighting.....I think there are faster ways to become a fighter....muay thai....san shou...

When it comes to others posting video dont wast your time with drills or "techniques in a sparring format". To truly represent your style fighters should be geared up and go for it.....it can be controlled...safety should be the first concern....but that being said you should be able to go at it fairly fast and furious to represent your style using techniques that are clearly from a mantis based style.

There are more than enough clips out there with people trading off in drills....or the instructor knocking the crap out of a student with a pre arranged sequence that the instructor knows much better than the student.

A good example would be the guy on the forum asking advice about fighting a tai kwan do guy. It should be as real as possible with safety in mind...but no limitations like no kicking to the head or legs, no take downs etc...

If the guy really wanted to try out his mantis...he should have just fought and not ask for any pointers...no coachining allowed just use your stuff. That would give a great example.

I hope im not coming across with an attitude. Im sure you have a great school.

But, when it comes down to people talking about other schools if they are traditional or not I think the only way to prove it is to show the final product. If some one was saying the same things about your school I would chime in and say the same things on your behalf.

The knee problem issue...well do you would not believe the amount of people I have met who has had knee surgery....and never studied the arts a day in their lives.

As far as I am concerned....Im not so worried about fighting anymore. I just want to have a happy and healthy life.

Mantid1,
Thats correct, I do other styles other than mantis. Where the difference lies is the amount of knowledge of techniques one get when learning the other styles. Lets say I just focus on the mantis. Mantis is known for the mantis claw/s correct. Now outside of the characteristic mantis claw, mantis has punches, palm strikes, finger strikes, grabs, etc. Tong Bei is primarily an open hand style that not only uses open hand techniques, but punches, grabs, finger strikes, etc. Long Fist, punches, open hand palm strikes, grabs, finger strikes, etc. Ziranmen, well, Ziranmen is more of a principle that teaches to use everything no matter the style (very, very, short and simple definition of the style). I've only discussed the hand work that makes each style characteristically different, I have even discussed the kicking, posture, stance work, etc of each style, but I can guarantee the same approach to training the styles and skills are the same, with the diiference being what are the characteristic movements or postures of each individual styles...

As you can see, this is why we approach fighting in the same manner as mantis vs. tong bei or tong bei vs. long fist. All styles share the exact same techniques, no matter the style. Mantis uses the mantis claw to grab, hook, claw, etc. Tong Bei uses its wide array of open hand techniques to do the same. As well as long fist. Heck, Tiger and Eagle claw styles use there characteristic claw postures to do the same. You see, thats why its all approached in the same manner.

And, being aggressive when sparring is not charateristic to any one style over another. Alot of styles today just dont show the standards and skills there suppost to be representing...

Once a person starts to define their movements they are already limited, blinding thenselves to what their style has to offer. In the old days kung fu masters learned a variety of kung fu styles, not just one. All the old famous masters where masters of several different styles. Believe that.

I understand your position on this subject and I see all the points your making. I used to ask myself the same questions. But, now, I've realized that the only person that can myself back is me.... So, I've gone forward making sure I obtain the understanding necessary to train all aspects of the cma...

Take care my friend.
Ron

[Chop Socki]

Poor, poor thread. It started out so nobly, with an honest question from a new student looking for reasonable discourse on the Wah Lum system. Look at it now... filled with axe grinding and poorly-hidden personal agendas.

Seriously folks, some of this stuff is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Wah Lum is bad because their Grandmaster has made up forms? When you can point out the 'one true system' whose forms were passed down from a mountain on stone tablets, I'll accept the validity of that argument. If the Grandmaster isn't entitled to contribute to the growth of the system, who is? The value in a form is in the applications, as well as the contributions it makes to improving balance, strength and flexibility. It isn't wine that improves with age - I've seen brand new forms that had great value, and hundred year old forms that were useless.

The same goes for the 'I honestly can't remember now why I ever liked that system in the first place' comments. When you follow that up with '...and I'm qualified to say that because I studied the system for several years', it just makes you look more foolish for having donated so much of your time and money to something you couldn't find value in.

My involvement with the Wah Lum system - and I've been a member for far more than 'several years' - is not based on the drama - either here or at the schools. My satisfaction does not derrive from the age or perceived 'traditionalism' of the material, the cut of the uniform pants, or on my personal relationship with Master Chan, his daughter, his wife or his shoe salesman. I've made a critical evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses and acted appropriately based on the results as I perceive them. Regardless of the direction that your own decision takes you, I welcome each of you to do the same.

Regards,

- CS

[Citong Shifu]

Poor, poor thread. It started out so nobly, with an honest question from a new student looking for reasonable discourse on the Wah Lum system. Look at it now... filled with axe grinding and poorly-hidden personal agendas.

Seriously folks, some of this stuff is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Wah Lum is bad because their Grandmaster has made up forms? When you can point out the 'one true system' whose forms were passed down from a mountain on stone tablets, I'll accept the validity of that argument. If the Grandmaster isn't entitled to contribute to the growth of the system, who is? The value in a form is in the applications, as well as the contributions it makes to improving balance, strength and flexibility. It isn't wine that improves with age - I've seen brand new forms that had great value, and hundred year old forms that were useless.

The same goes for the 'I honestly can't remember now why I ever liked that system in the first place' comments. When you follow that up with '...and I'm qualified to say that because I studied the system for several years', it just makes you look more foolish for having donated so much of your time and money to something you couldn't find value in.

My involvement with the Wah Lum system - and I've been a member for far more than 'several years' - is not based on the drama - either here or at the schools. My satisfaction does not derrive from the age or perceived 'traditionalism' of the material, the cut of the uniform pants, or on my personal relationship with Master Chan, his daughter, his wife or his shoe salesman. I've made a critical evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses and acted appropriately based on the results as I perceive them. Regardless of the direction that your own decision takes you, I welcome each of you to do the same.

Regards,

- CS

LOL, I thought we were all discussing what we liked and disliked! Sure, I made some comments, thats how I feel. I'll state it again. WL to me is a waste of time! Nothing will change my mind. I know what I have now. I also know what I've had to go through to get where I'm at today. I have no hidden agenda. I have seen many WL people recently throughout my competition travels and there still doing the same things that I have mentioned and more. Dont get me wrong, I'm not talking about every WL student, but the majority represents the validity of my comments. Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself. I was there and I'm not the only one who feels the same way. WL has lost so many of its seniors throughout the last several years due to many of the reasons that have been discussed. Those are the facts. Enjoy your WL training, I hope the best for you, I really do. It was hard for me to accept the time and money I wasted too. Now I know. I found the value of my training elsewhere. I certainly dont feel I'm wsting my time now.

Take care. Best of luck.
Ron

[Chop Socki]

...I certainly dont feel I'm wasting my time now.

When all is said and done, that's all that really matters.

Best of luck to you as well,

- CS

[Citong Shifu]

When all is said and done, that's all that really matters.

Best of luck to you as well,

- CS

Chop Sockie,
How long have you been in WL. I've heard that WL has made quite a bit of changes since the last time I was involved with the art. I still keep in touch with some of the old guys who still train WL, there lifers, lol.... From what I've heard WL has a slightly different twist to it then the old days. Ok, take care.

Ron

[yu shan]

For such a poor poor thread just under 1400 views in 13 days is not too shabby.

[Citong Shifu]

For such a poor poor thread just under 1400 views in 13 days is not too shabby.

1400, wow! Thats alot of views.

[mantid1]

When Citong Shifu speaks....peopls listen!

[Chop Socki]

Chop Sockie,
How long have you been in WL. I've heard that WL has made quite a bit of changes since the last time I was involved with the art. I still keep in touch with some of the old guys who still train WL, there lifers, lol.... From what I've heard WL has a slightly different twist to it then the old days. Ok, take care.

Ron

Citong Shifu -

I've been involved in Wah Lum for about 20 years. I'm not sure what qualifies as an old timer, though I did co-exist with the Sean, Tracy, Troy, Dean, etc. generation, if that helps.

As far as changes... honestly, that's a tough one. As 'just one of the guys' who isn't necessarily privy to super-secret insider information, I have a hard time distinguishing between 'system-level' changes imposed from the top and more local changes. I still think that while the core system may be standardized across schools, what you actually learn - the emphasis, the interpretation, and even, at higher levels, the material - is affected more by the quality of the instructor than anything Master Chan can control from Orlando. The places and people you knew may not have changed at all, while the place down the road could be completely different from what you ever experienced.

Good health to you and yours,

- CS

[Citong Shifu]

When Citong Shifu speaks....peopls listen!

I doubt that, lmao . I cant even get my children to listen to me .

[Citong Shifu]

Citong Shifu -

I've been involved in Wah Lum for about 20 years. I'm not sure what qualifies as an old timer, though I did co-exist with the Sean, Tracy, Troy, Dean, etc. generation, if that helps.

As far as changes... honestly, that's a tough one. As 'just one of the guys' who isn't necessarily privy to super-secret insider information, I have a hard time distinguishing between 'system-level' changes imposed from the top and more local changes. I still think that while the core system may be standardized across schools, what you actually learn - the emphasis, the interpretation, and even, at higher levels, the material - is affected more by the quality of the instructor than anything Master Chan can control from Orlando. The places and people you knew may not have changed at all, while the place down the road could be completely different from what you ever experienced.

Good health to you and yours,

- CS

Chop Sockie,
I was mainly talking about the changes in the curriculum since I've been gone, like little fan cha, say lok, etc. All in all, there's little changes here and there that wasn't curriculum when I was there. What is you name? I probably know you since you were there when Sean, Troy, Bob, & Tracey was around... Yea, I've seen alot of the other WL school outside of Orlando adding CLF, Hung Gar, etc to there curriculum. Just kinda curious about that. Chan normally didnt allow add ons to the program unless it was being taught seperately... Anyway, doesnt matter, I teach other styles too . Just back in my WL day, things were watched very close by Chan, he always knew what was going on, lol... He was something else, lol... Definitely had conviction!

Take care.
Ron

[Yao Sing]

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don't mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what's currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she's an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that's what you're seeing as current changes.

[Citong Shifu]

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don't mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what's currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she's an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that's what you're seeing as current changes.

Yao Sing, That makes alot of sense. Thats probably what I'm seeing. Yes, I have seen alot of wushu out of her these last several years, was wondering about that. Oh well, gotta go with the times... In todays commercial martial art business, as with all business, its a buyers market, choke, choke . When I was coming up in the martial arts you bought (signed up) what was being sold. Now! People buy (sign up) in what they want!!!!! The buyers market, gotta love it... Its too bad that most of the public (the majority) cant see what there missing or giving up just to have what they want, when they want it . Anyway this is the world we live in today. All we can do is keep on push'n.

Regards.
Ron.

[Yao Sing]

I haven't seen the latest handbook but as far as I know all the curriculum changes were made by MC himself. He added some of the seminar sets and moved things around.

I practically jumped a whole level when that happened but by that time I was in the "learn what fits you" stage. I never really followed the curriculum anyhow for most of my time there.

MC would just grab a couple of us senior guys and say we were going to start learning X. Some of the seminars he would teach only half of the set then later on at the Temple he would teach us the rest of the set.

Anyhow, I would expect Mimi to put her stamp on the style someday and add one of her own creation.

I never got much insight into any of the branch schools so I'll leave that to others to discuss. I do know MC leaves quite a lot of flexibility in what and how you teach, just as long as you stick to the basic curriculum.

Non-Wuh Lum material can be taught but can not be more than 40% of the school.
That's an awful lot of flexibility right there.

[woliveri]

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don't mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what's currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she's an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that's what you're seeing as current changes.

Good Lord...

Well, there you go. There's no way Mimi can fill Master Chan's shoes, especially if she's persuing an acting career at the same time.

I was there in 84 when Master Chan was still teaching classes and again later during the Sean, Tracy days. "He" (MC) was the draw and to train at a Temple. Man, it was great to go in the mornings. The smell of the incense, the atmosphere of the Temple, Master Chan yelling at this or that. Ha ha...

Seminars with Shek Kin, Lee Koon Hung, Mok Poi On, Brendon Lai.

Wah Lum Manual Picture:
http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/wlman1.jpg

Fond memories.