How Does One Defeat Gracie Jujistu ?

[BlueTravesty]

Nothing can stop a truly dedicated grappler. N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

Not elbows, not knees, not roundhouse kicks, not mace, not a girl scout standing in front of you selling cookies.

The only hope you have is to find those spikes that kill Mega Man in one hit when he falls on them, and place a trap door in front of your opponent. Of course, this will only work if your opponent is wearing blue ceramic armor. Obviously, these are not the usual circumstances you'd find in the Octagon, but if you funnel enough money Dana White's way, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting the necessary arrangements made. Don't thank me though- seeing Matt Hughes flying apart in a shower of bright white spheres is all I need.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Although to be fair you do force the head down when you sprawl.
You're not going to beat anyone if you don't have confidence in what you do, which you appear not to.D

True, but you also force their shoulders and torso down with all your body weight. This dude was saying push his head down with your hands. That's just not going to cut the mustard.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think you'll be surprised about high kicks, though. When I was learning BJJ, there was a dude there teaching who told me high kicks do have a great use for grapplers, too. If you throw them, you'll keep a striker at distance and focus his energies high. It'll create teh space you want for shooting and takedowns, while he's still defending high. Plus, some BJJ guys are really bad at stand-up. Of course, that's why there's MMA (and most the BJJ guys at that school had some kind of MMA agenda, to be truthful).

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

1980's
"Only another Ninja, can Kill a Ninja"

2007
"Only another BJJ, can defeat BJJ!!"

Even Michael Dudikoff Had to learn BJJ.

[YiLiQuan1]

At first, I thought grappling/groundfighting/BJJ-style jujutsu was total crap, easily defended against, etc. All the standard arguments. Then I trained with a friend, a judo 3rd dan who also has extensive BJJ experience. Even though he has, quite literally, a genuine fear of getting hit whatsoever, he was never in any danger of that. Once he got his hands on me, I was done.

I had no ground skills to speak of. Once he achieved a dominant body position, I was his toy. There was absolutely nothing that my 18+ years of stand-up training could do.

Had he not been as close a friend as he was, he'd have eaten me for breakfast and still had room for more toast...

So, I started to learn. I started learning what he had to teach, I started pursuing groundfighting skills, and am going to pursue doing just that when I get back from Iraq.

While in Army Combatives training, I realized that once I knew the same groundwork that my compatriots knew, I could relatively easily neutralize their "ground game" which allowed the now 22+ years of stand-up training to integrate into my overall strategy.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I've gone up against folks who have similar levels of ground skill as I do, and with that I'm one up on them for the additional training. Why people continue to search within their own systems for non-existant material is a mystery...

Go take a class or twelve. Learn their game, then use it against them. Learning something new doesn't mean abandoning what you've done to that point and never pursuing it again. The human brain has no limit to its capacity... Learn as much, and from as many, as you can. That's how you win.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Actually, most Chinese systems have all the tools needed to not be taken down. Heck, movement representing a Sprawl is in one of my Tai Tzu forms. Tai Chi is especially good at keeping a dominate position, and keeping an opponent off balance.

What TCMA does not have is all that extensive ground fighting stuff. TCMA's ground work is very simple and mostly types of ground and pound or stomps done in such a way as to keep you with one leg standing so you have instant mobility should a second attacker move in. That is not going to help you if someone takes you off your feet though.

[Shaolin Wookie]

REally, though, is BJJ that much different than CMA? Sure, you do it on the ground. But the traingle choke that I do with my forearm from the front (shooting forward under the jab), is the exact same thing a BJJ guy does with his legs. The difference is body position, standing or on the ground. But it's the same exact method of issuing a choke and getting leverage/power.

I think most BJJ guys could take a kungfu guy, b/c the latter has very little expeirence on the ground, and generally panics and scrambles little while the BJJ guy takes advantage of it. Also, BJJ wins in a sparring session, b/c the gloves soften the blows, and the BJJ guy doesn't have to worry as much about taking so much damage while standing.....plus, kung fu guys tend to be tentative in really putting the hurt on a sporting opponent. Not all, but many do.

[monji112000]

Use your high kicks.

Throw them from a low horse stance.

Then elbow them as they come in.

If that doesn't work, you can lookup some Wing Chun anti grappling on You Tube... it is very effective for keeping them away.

what if he uses anti-anti-grappling? Then you are in trouble.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fRbnvGDyPKI
Why not just stab him when he come in its more practical?

I would not join a BJJ school. Visit a MMA a school, learn some basic wrestling and clinching.

Actually, most Chinese systems have all the tools needed to not be taken down. Heck, movement representing a Sprawl is in one of my Tai Tzu forms. Tai Chi is especially good at keeping a dominate position, and keeping an opponent off balance.

sprawl? I have seen a half sprawl by some kung fu people that seemed to work if you time it correctly..but a full sprawl.. It uses some basic Kung Fu ideas like redirecting force, and structure but thats only general ideas.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think most BJJ guys could take a kungfu guy, b/c the latter has very little expeirence on the ground, and generally panics and scrambles little while the BJJ guy takes advantage of it. Also, BJJ wins in a sparring session, b/c the gloves soften the blows, and the BJJ guy doesn't have to worry as much about taking so much damage while standing.....plus, kung fu guys tend to be tentative in really putting the hurt on a sporting opponent. Not all, but many do.

Reply]
If the Kung Fu guy has good takedown avoidance skills, he's going to win because BJJ has almost zero striking abilities. Competitive TCMA guys will do better than non.


sprawl? I have seen a half sprawl by some kung fu people that seemed to work if you time it correctly..but a full sprawl.. It uses some basic Kung Fu ideas like redirecting force, and structure but thats only general ideas.

Reply]
In the form it is done as a half sprawl because the form player needs to stay on his feet to do the next move. It's a half sprawl in the form, for the continuity of the form itself.

But each move in the form really represents a small family of moves. You have a direct application of the exact move itself, AND you have a variety of applications for variations of the exact move performed, and a full sprawl is really a minor variation of a half sprawl.

The thing is, a sprawl used like BJJ does, really goes against main stream TCMA thinking because you go down with the opponent. TCMA prefers to down the opponent while you stay up, or sink to a crouching posture to finish them with heavy strikes, or even stomp and kick them when down. TCMA does not want to go down with them and fight there. It wants to get back to it's feet ASAP, and finish with strikes from a position that keeps him mobile in case of a second attacker.

Going down with them fully, like a sprawl does is not a desirable thing, and is done only if forced to. Even then the goal is to get back to your feet as quickly as possible, not stay down and grapple. So you will find Kung Fu guys with the tools to stay on thier feet, but not the tools to deal with BJJ if forced down to fight on the ground.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think most BJJ guys could take a kungfu guy, b/c the latter has very little expeirence on the ground, and generally panics and scrambles little while the BJJ guy takes advantage of it. Also, BJJ wins in a sparring session, b/c the gloves soften the blows, and the BJJ guy doesn't have to worry as much about taking so much damage while standing.....plus, kung fu guys tend to be tentative in really putting the hurt on a sporting opponent. Not all, but many do.

Reply]
If the Kung Fu guy has good takedown avoidance skills, he's going to win because BJJ has almost zero striking abilities. Competitive TCMA guys will do better than non.

Most don't have good takedown avoidance, b/c the people who do it are other kungfu guys with crappy takedown skills. The MMA guys are generally correct on this issue. I've seen great takedowns at my kungfu school, but nothing as fluid and with as smooth transitions in troubleshooting the shoot as I did when I was taking BJJ.

[YiLiQuan1]

I must respectfully disagree...

Though there are similar movements contained in forms and drills, they are not the same. Were they the same, the argument would be nonexistant... Those movements would be known for the alleged anti-grappling techniques they are claimed to be, versus the current situation of a knee-jerk "we do TOO have grappling stuff!" arguments provided in most circumstances.

Once someone has grappling/groundfighting training from a legitimate method, they can see things elsewhere that might equate to a grappling/groundfighting corollary; that doesn't mean that's what that movement really is/was meant to be. Just because you can see it, doesn't imply that's what the forms' creators intended it to be.

Further, I suspect most of the "I can TOO out-grapple you with my XXX fu!" banner wavers have never really gone up against, even in friendly training, someone that possesses more than beginner's knowledge in grappling. Otherwise, some of the idiot responses found elsewhere on the internet never would have been posted...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Most don't have good takedown avoidance, b/c the people who do it are other kungfu guys with crappy takedown skills. The MMA guys are generally correct on this issue. I've seen great takedowns at my kungfu school, but nothing as fluid and with as smooth transitions in troubleshooting the shoot as I did when I was taking BJJ.

Reply]
That is becasue they don't work them, as the focus has been striking for so long. All the tools ARE there, you just need to develop them.

You are right, the quality of the takedowns is not there either, and that must be addressed too. Again, the tools are there, but just not worked enough to be on the same level as a BJJ school.

The problem has to do with Kung Fu teachers focusing on only half thier arsenal for so long that the other half has become rusty. BJJ has the same problem with thier striking.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Most don't have good takedown avoidance, b/c the people who do it are other kungfu guys with crappy takedown skills. The MMA guys are generally correct on this issue. I've seen great takedowns at my kungfu school, but nothing as fluid and with as smooth transitions in troubleshooting the shoot as I did when I was taking BJJ.

Reply]
BJJ has the same problem with thier striking.

That's because there isn't any.....LOL. The whole controversy is one I settled very simply. I looked at my kung fu training and said: hey, I'll get some striking, some weapons, some grappling, some throwing, but I'll never be the best at any one of them, so much as a purist striker, grappler, thrower, or a guy who works with primarily one weapon (like escrima and kali with just sticks and knives). But I was fine with that. But even within all that, I know there's certain things I focus on more (striking, staff) than I do others, and will be better at them.

I could pick up a lead pipe in a street fight and feel comfortable with it, b/c that kind of varied training leaves me pretty adaptable to circumstances.

[Ben Gash]

I don't know, TCMA aren't that different to classical Jujitsu, and Judo grew from those techniques, and BJJ grew from there.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Though there are similar movements contained in forms and drills, they are not the same. Were they the same, the argument would be nonexistant... Those movements would be known for the alleged anti-grappling techniques they are claimed to be, versus the current situation of a knee-jerk "we do TOO have grappling stuff!" arguments provided in most circumstances.

Reply]
That is just it, they ARE there. You see moves right from common forms used all the time In San Shou. Often, they are direct apps of the form done exactly as the from is performed. The problem here is San Shou guys don't really feel the need to compete MMA becasue they have quality, high level competitions to fight in already, with superior striking to UFC. Plus San Shou has throws, take downs and everything else but Ground wrestling.

Since they are looking for high level striking competitors to fight against, going to UFC is not desirable, so the MMA nut riders do not see all the anti grappling in action.