How Does One Defeat Gracie Jujistu ?

[RonH]

What is insane are the theoretical non-fighters who try to extrapolate that data to something as stupid as that ineffective leverage type move to the neck that you described.

No, what I described was a move taught in eskrima. The part where I mention the bendable neck for crash test dummies was for a reference outside of martial arts where there are studies done on just how much stress the neck can take.

Your accusation of me being a theoretical nonfighter is without evidence. It'd be best if you didn't do such things in the future because all it does is make your argument silly when you use it as a basis.

That data would be much more applicable to striking to the head than it would be to neck manipulations.

Only the part about temple striking, which isn't required with the move I described. I added it as an example of what one might do after applying pressure to the back of the neck.

BTW, grapplers regularly use moves (i.e. 1/4 nelson, crucifix, etc) that are much more effective and put much more pressure on the neck without breaking each others necks.

Not the issue. The issue was how. I gave one example of how. It doesn't matter what grapplers regularly use or not.

[unkokusai]

It doesn't matter what grapplers regularly use or not.

Oh brother...

I wonder why that might be?

[Knifefighter]

No, what I described was a move taught in eskrima.

Yeah, I know... I've been doing FMA for 30 years... lots of B.S in those arts with regards to grappling.

The part where I mention the bendable neck for crash test dummies was for a reference outside of martial arts where there are studies done on just how much stress the neck can take.

The stresses they measure are whiplash type effects of the crashes, not direct pressure to the neck.

Your accusation of me being a theoretical nonfighter is without evidence.

You described a move that, in your own post, you said could not be done in a full force manner without killing someone. Unless you have used that move to kill someone, that is completley theoretical.

BTW, I have tried that move full force many times in live sessions. Not only does it not break people's necks, it's not a very good technique, as it is too easy for the opponent to just sit through and come around to your back.

[Knifefighter]

Not the issue. The issue was how. I gave one example of how. It doesn't matter what grapplers regularly use or not.

In addition to describing theoretical moves that you do not do full force, here is more evidence of being a theoretical non-fighter. People who actually go live know that what other people are doing full force in live settings is very germaine to what works and what doesn't work.

Paying attention to what other people are doing might help you to realize that you could change the move you were describing into a much more functional one by turning it into a 1/4 nelson or crucifix, giving the opportunity to much better control the opponent.

[RonH]

Oh brother...

I wonder why that might be?

Because it is what's dictated to by the opening post. Let's examin it:

'i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.'

FANWOO is unsure of how to keep a gracie jujitsu guy from closing the gap between them when they fight. He says what he knows is Kyukoshin Karate and doesn't know how to defeat omeone that knows GJ. He doesn't ask for a method of a particular style, his own or any other. Leaving that option open, I gave him one. That is why it didn't matter. Regardless of whether I gave an example of a grappling move or not, a specific request for a grappling move wasn't asked for. I could have easily said a snap knee to the face, as the gracie lunges for the waist.

Yeah, I know... I've been doing FMA for 30 years... lots of B.S in those arts with regards to grappling.

And yet, pushing down hard on the neck hurts like hell.

The stresses they measure are whiplash type effects of the crashes, not direct pressure to the neck.

And they are still studying how much the neck can take, as I said.

You described a move that, in your own post, you said could not be done in a full force manner without killing someone.

No, you run the risk of killing if you are not careful. How the bone(s) in the neck are broken determines what happens to the target. You can live with a broken neck. It might just be broken, there could be damage to the nerves, causing a varying degree of paralysis. It can mean death, too, but it isn't the only outcome.

Unless you have used that move to kill someone, that is completley theoretical.

No, it isn't. It isn't required that you go full force on every blasted thing you do. I said you had to be careful, otherwise you execute the move differently than what you want to do.

Taking that thinking to its ultimate expression, I've never seen someone in a spacesuit die from being thrown into the sun. That doesn't mean that that idea is purely theoretical. It doesn't mean you can't figure out that someone would die, if they were thrown into the sun.

BTW, I have tried that move full force many times in live sessions. Not only does it not break people's necks, it's not a very good technique, as it is too easy for the opponent to just sit through and come around to your back.

And this is why I mention what you do after you have bent their head down and locked their arm up.

[lkfmdc]

pushing down hard on the neck hurts like hell.

I wasn't aware that "hurts like hell" = capable of killing someone

[unkokusai]

I think the 'H' in RonH stands for 'Hypothetical,' 'Hysterical,' or 'Hilarious'

[sanjuro_ronin]

i can not figure out how a to keep a gracie jujitsu person from closing the gap and taking a kyukoshin karate (me) to the ground. or how to defeat him. any help please ? oh, i never use high kicks,but rather low and close.

I am a kyokushin 2nd dan and a Judo Shodan.
And I took a years worth of private lessons in BJJ with a 3rd degree BB.

My advice?

Learn BJJ and how to apply and defend against it with what you have.

[cjurakpt]

Use your high kicks.

Throw them from a low horse stance.

Then elbow them as they come in.

If that doesn't work, you can lookup some Wing Chun anti grappling on You Tube... it is very effective for keeping them away.

Those mere external systems don't work, you need INTERNAL

Learn Tai Chi, the push hands will deflect them, then use your ba gua grappling

wrong sirs, wrong!

qi ball them from 20 paces

or better yet, post on forums that you know they read regullarly and lace your posts with subliminal negative energy patterns, and when they read your posts they will start to feel really lousy and eventually their organs will implode

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

or better yet, post on forums that you know they read regullarly and lace your posts with subliminal negative energy patterns, and when they read your posts they will start to feel really lousy and eventually their organs will implode

Reply]
Actually, you are wrong, their internal organs spontaneously combust.
Implosion happens when external power is directly, and physically applied, like with the heart exploding death touch...which actually Implodes the heart.

When you are using pure Qi energy, especially over a distance, spontaneous combustion is the result.

The fact that you do not know this shows that you are an inexperience hypothisist who has never actually faught.

[cjurakpt]

Let them come at you.

yeah, let them really get some momentum going - don't try to use any sort of evasive footwork

Usually, when someone is taught to take someone to the ground, they say go for their center of gravity. When they lean forward,

someone who knows how to shoot correctly will not "lean forward" - they will drop their body by bending their knees, and if they do "lean forward", it's not going to be at 90 deg. to their pelvis - they will still maintain structure and relative alignment

wrapping their arm(s) around your waist/abdomin, put your elbow at the base of the back of their neck,

and therefore, because they are not "leaning forward", the back of their neck will not be exposed (of course, they might shoot incorrectly, but that's not the issue)

just above the spot where the shoulders meet the neck. With the same arm, scoop under their upper arm

what does "upper" mean? and what if both their arms are at equal height?

(if you press down with your right elbow, use your right hand to scoop under the upper end of their right upper arm) and pull up on that arm, while you press down on their neck and drop your weight.

what sort of footwork do you need to do to position yourself for this correctly? and what do you do if they change the arms so that now the left one is the "upper" arm

Don't do it too quickly because this move will extremely easily break a neck making them paralyzed or dead.

how exactly will it do this? what direction is the force going, what vertebra is it targeting specifically and what part of the vertebra will it frature? breaking someone's neck when the neuromuscular system is primed into a generalized tonic phase is unlikely - someone going in for a shoot is going to be expecting a counter and therefore will tense whatever body parts you try to manuever; and again, how do you know this will could break a neck "easily"? have you ever tried it, or seen it done? (your "evidence" about 140 lbs of force, if it is correct, is still specific to a whiplash / MVA-related injury, the mechanics of which are completely different than what you propose)

Going down on one knee is enough to stop a lot of people, just just don't let your body drop like a sack of potatoes. When doing this move, you have to be controlled. No joke. Doing that move, the average neck can only stand about 140 pounds before it's too much. If a little pain this way doesn't stop them, hammer down with your free hand on them. Or make a fist with your free hand, but put the tip of your thumb against the side of first joint of the index finger after the knuckle. The tip of the thumb uses the side of the joint as a support and slam the joint of the thumb that juts out when it is in this position. Hit their temple with this jutting out joint. Just don't let yourself get too carried away with the temple striking and put more pressure on the back of their neck than you should be giving them.[/QUOTE]
have you ever hit someone in the side of the head with this before? do you know what happens to the "temple" (a very imprecise term) when someone clenches their jaw, which typically happens at the same time they re resisting having their neck manipulated?

[Fighting_Lad]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting

Reply]
Tai Chi!

[bodhitree]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting

Reply]
Tai Chi!

In dreamland

[cjurakpt]

I agree with "cjurakpt" - using their momentum is essential to overcoming their style of fighting.

ummm - where did I advocate this?

the idea of "using" someone's momentum implies that once you start to use their momentum that they are unable to do anything and simply have to go along with it; this is absurd - any trained fighter, or athlete in general, is going to pick up on when their momentum is being augmented, and will counter that - do you really think that if someone shoots that they are not anticipating some sort of redirection, and that they don't train to counter that?

this is a myth bourne out of too many compliant aikido and tai chi demos...