ATTN jmd161 (Hak Fu Mun in Hung Gar)

[The Xia]

I remember you saying that Wong Fei Hung and Wong Kei Ying learned Hak Fu Mun from Soo Hak Fu. I also remember you saying that Ye Fu sets are present in some Hung Gar lineages. What techniques that Soo Hak Fu's Black Tiger is famous for found their way into Wong Fei Hung's Hung Gar. Also, what Hung Gar lines teach Ye Fu sets? "Village" styles? I don't recall hearing of any Wong Fei Hung line that does (though that doesn't mean there aren't any).

[jmd161]

Yeah, there are a few lineages of Hung Gar that have Ye Fu (Night Tiger) sets. John Leong is one that I've heard teaches a Night tiger set. In GGFFK many of the opening dbl handed short techniques are all Hak Fu Mun.




jeff

[TenTigers]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=18NWNop0I...elated&search=
JMD-do you recognize this set? It has a strong resemblance to CLF IMHO.
Do you have any sets on vid? I would enjoy seeing some,especially those that have similarities to Hung Kuen.

[jmd161]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=18NWNop0I...elated&search=
JMD-do you recognize this set? It has a strong resemblance to CLF IMHO.
Do you have any sets on vid? I would enjoy seeing some,especially those that have similarities to Hung Kuen.

Ten Tigers,


That is our Kam Kong Kune form, it's one of our longrange forms. It's being performed by a sisuk of mine on the roof tops in Hong kong around 1972. It was actually a walk through that was recorded. Yeah, we have a lot of Lama and CLF type techniques within Hak Fu Mun. Everyone expects Hak Fu Mun to look exactly like Hung Kune, but that's not the case. I can show you forms that you will see a Hung Kuen influence in right away, and I can show you forms that have no resemblance to Hung Kuen or anything else you've ever seen.


Soo Hak Fu had a very diverse knowledge of different TCMA styles. He incorperated that broad knowledge base into Hak Fu Mun. We have monkey sets as well as drunken sets all created by Soo Hak Fu himself. As well as exotic weapons sets like our Chopsticks and Bowl set and our Chinese Handcuff set as well. So, Hak Fu Mun is very different from what people expect. Other than our Night Tiger sets and a few other techniques here and there, we rarely use fu jow or tiger claws. While we do have longrange techniques and forms Hak Fu Mun is a very inclose fighting system. Think of it as a Choy Lay Fut type of blitzkreig attacking, with Hung Kuen's power and Hung Fut's flair.


If there is any style very close to us IMO it would be Hung Fut, because we share so much in common. We share some fist and weapons sets, but they're a bit different. I have more video, but my sifu has forbid me to post anymore on the internet.

There are two more vids on Youtube, but they are both weapons sets. A kwan Do and a Lee Gar staff set. I have a vid that i'm sure you would notice the resemblance to Hung Kune right away lol

PM me your email information, and i'll send it to you. You'll have to give me about a week.. as i'm in VA and my vid stash is still in New York.

jeff

[The Xia]

Yeah, there are a few lineages of Hung Gar that have Ye Fu (Night Tiger) sets. John Leong is one that I've heard teaches a Night tiger set. In GGFFK many of the opening dbl handed short techniques are all Hak Fu Mun.




jeff

Thanks. Do you know of any videos of the Ye Fu sets?

[jmd161]

Thanks. Do you know of any videos of the Ye Fu sets?

Not really... I have a very short clip of it (about 5 seconds) but it's done at full speed, so it makes it very hard to distinguish much in that clip. I'll see if I can maybe post it here, since it's only a brief clip.



jeff

[PM]

ye fu cheut lam 夜虎出林 ("night tiger emerges from the forest") is a set of "old Hung Kyun"/Siulam, and was introduced to Hung Kyun by Wong Lei 王利.

i have the whole set on the video, but i will not publish it without the permission of the person permorming the set - sifu (student of Wong Lei) of my senior and very good friend.

it is a very long set with clear structure, most of it dyun kiu jaak ma 短橋窄馬 (short bridges, narrow stances), and resembles Southern Praying Mantis

any more info of Wong family learning Hak Fu Mun or contact with Sou Hakfu? i never heard this info, nor read in any of the Chinese biographies of Wong Feihung.

just a sienote - i have met in China a sifu whose lineage was form Sou Hatyi, "Beggar Sou"

[jmd161]

ye fu cheut lam 夜虎出林 ("night tiger emerges from the forest") is a set of "old Hung Kyun"/Siulam, and was introduced to Hung Kyun by Wong Lei 王利.

i have the whole set on the video, but i will not publish it without the permission of the person permorming the set - sifu (student of Wong Lei) of my senior and very good friend.

it is a very long set with clear structure, most of it dyun kiu jaak ma 短橋窄馬 (short bridges, narrow stances), and resembles Southern Praying Mantis

any more info of Wong family learning Hak Fu Mun or contact with Sou Hakfu? i never heard this info, nor read in any of the Chinese biographies of Wong Feihung.

just a sienote - i have met in China a sifu whose lineage was form Sou Hatyi, "Beggar Sou"

You never heard of Wong Kei Yin and Soo Hak Fu being friends? It is well known that these two were the closest of the Kwangtung Sup Fu. Also many attribute falsely much to Beggar Sou that actually came from Soo Hak Fu. Night Tiger sets are core sets within Hak Fu Mun.

Hung Kuen and Hak Fu Mun have always been close sister styles. You've never heard that either? Ask your sifu of the history Hak Fu Mun and Hung Kuen share. Look at GGFFK at the short bridge dbl hand techniques, and ask where does that come from?!?!?

If you know what is and what's not Hung kuen, and what is and is not Lama, then the Hak Fu Mun should jump right out at you.


jeff

[PM]

dear Jeff,

thank your for your post.

Gwongdung sap fu as a group or organisation is imho more legend then truth, and the contacts between them is dubious

yes, i never heard form any old reliable source that Wong Keiying and Sou Hakfu were friends. the contact between diffeent persons from Ten Tigers group is questionable, the only 100% sure thing is Lam Fuksing (student of Tit Kiu Saam) and Wong Keiying/Wong Feihung. people talk about Wong Yanlam and Wong Feihung, but i have never seen a reliable old source, although the influence of lama paai/baak hok/lama paai is evident (but when? time of Wong Keying? Wong Feihung? Lam Saiwing?)

sure thing i know about Hak fu mun/Hak fu paai/fu jaau paai and their relationsh to Hung Kyun, BUT the thing is, it is not certain what system had influence on the other system.

i do not think anything in gung ji fuk fu kyun comes from Hak fu mun, at least according our written history, gjffk comes from Southern Siulam in direct line of transmission. my sigung does not call it even Hung Kyun, but Siulam kyun. (tiger and crane for example is a different story, it is jaap ga, ie. sysnthesis of different "families" - Hung, Choi, Fat... ). and - according our history, our tiger comes from Hung Heigun.

please do not take me wrong, any info is really appreciated, so if you have any more info (plus the source - Chinese text would be great), please share!

[mok]

PM, JMD:

Wong Kiew Kit still teaches "Night Tiger emerges from forest", his Hung Kuen lineage is non-WFH from Malaysia, so this would support it being part of "old" hung kuen.

As for the short-bridges in GGFF being from Hak Fu Moon - I am doubtful. These represent some of the oldest elements in Hung - ie from whatever original art was transmitted from sil lum. I think it is more a case of Hak Fu Moon and Hung Ga sharing common southern sil lum ancestry, although as said many times Hung Ga, and especially WFH Hung Ga has diverged from its original roots.

[PM]

i think Wong Kiew Kit sifu does not teach ye fu cheut lam - i saw his complete curriculum some time ago and i do not remeber this set to be there, if you find it soomewhere, pelase let me know

just a side note - in the time of Wong Feihung, Lam Saiwing and even today, Hung Kyun is called simply Siulam. it has changed since it left monastery and Hung Heigun started to teach the art, as ANY other southern Siulam system. i would not say "especially WFH Hung Ga has diverged from its original roots". although Hung kyun is said to be closest to the original Siulam Kyun, i do not like the "closer to the root" announcements and "village" (?) Hung Kyun madness, it does not say really anything.

[mok]

PM,

I meant no disrespect to the Hung Ga style, or of our claim of being true to siu lum, etc - just being humble.

That said, we know that WFH Hung Ga specifically incorporates influences not from siu lam - i.e. the lama-pai techniques that are quite different from the the narrower stuff in other southern styles - "jaap ga" as you said.

Actually I feel we're very lucky in Hung to have such a good traceable historical record of our style and lineages, and even to a certain degree of its evolution. This is large part due to your si-gung, Lam Sai Wing and even before that to WFH. I even believe a lot of CMA in general owes a debt to our predecessors for providing such a clear example of transmission and tradition.

Hung Ga is and has always been the "gold standard" against which all other southern arts are measured. Just have to look at how many styles claim to be "better than Hung", etc. Even Choy Lee Fut has a punch that is said to be designed specifically to beat the Hung Ga "yut jee choy".


Respectfully,

mok

[banditshaw]

Would it be safe to say that the Siu Lam Techniques especially the Tiger shapes be accredited to Gee Sin then onto Hung Hei Goon and Luk Ah Choi? And doesn't most of Hung Kuen as we know it come from the Luk Ah Choi's teachings and so on down the line to Wong Tai,Wong Kei Ying then Wong Fei Hung?

[PM]

Mok: no problem at all, respect to you. btw. not all Southern Siulam is short range - take Choi Lei Fat for example (Choi Ga, Lei Ga and Fat Ga). for HK long bridges i would not say "different", but complementry to the rest of the SYSTEM as we know it today. Hung kyun is definitely not just bunch of techniques put together

Banditshaw: yes

[David Jamieson]

I think to attribute Hung Kuen to any one person is egregious at best.

Better to attribute it to shaolin (sil lum, siu lahm, siu lam, et al) and then down through the lines to the inheritors, modifiers and proponents.

I agree, there is no definitive information in regards to chicken v. egg when it comes to hak fu and hung kuen intercourse over time.