So here is an interesting question for some of the people on this board

[lkfmdc]

are we talking fighters as in MMA only?

what about chinese fighting circuits?

i guess since they dont grapple on the ground its not got every element...but they are still fighting. granted not as freely in a sense...but i wouldnt call san shou champions non fighters....they are definately fighters in their own right.

and there are a LOT of san shou fighters.

As someone who has promoted San Shou/San da since 1994 (and continues to do so), NO, there are not "a LOT of san shou fighters"

There are 7 or so programs producing San Da fighters now. And when one of those programs decided to show up at a San Da/san Shou event, they dominate.

This is why perhaps we see events that the major teams don't attend seem to have some guys from the TCMA schools. They are willing to fight eachother, but not the trained fighters. I can think of five of these events off the top of my head.

Still, even at those events, they have like 400 people doign forms, and less than 30 doing san shou....

thats like saying the best Muay Thai fighter in thailand is not a real fighter because hes not MMA????

Show me ONE post, just one, where anyone said Muay Thai people are nto fighters, STRAW MAN

i also call bs

oh, definitely

[lkfmdc]

This is a very valid point, though we must define fighters.
Then there is the competition issue, not all systems lend themselves to competition, ALTHOUGH, at this stage of MMA and Vale Tudo, that is less the case than in years past.

there was a perid of about 4 years when you could head butt, kick a downed fighter, strike the groin, pretty much do anything except gouge the eyes and bite, and there was MONEY involved. Why didn't we see a single TCMA based fighter step up, win one of those events and collect $10,000.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

there was a perid of about 4 years when you could head butt, kick a downed fighter, strike the groin, pretty much do anything except gouge the eyes and bite, and there was MONEY involved. Why didn't we see a single TCMA based fighter step up, win one of those events and collect $10,000.....

I can only speak for what I have seen and in the few Vale Tudo matches that I was involved in, in one way or another, in the mid and late 90's, they were all pretty much anything goes, they were on Indian Land and the majority run by HA, and quite a bit of cash flowed around.
The fighters were mostly Thai boxers, tough guys, and what not, the majority sport combat systems, BUT there were 2 guys that I met that were Kung fu, a WC guy and a Hung Ga guy.
That was it.
It may will be the environment didn't suit them.

[Lucas]

how many san shou / san da bouts happen a year in china?

just curious.

as to the muay thai thing. i was getting the general feeling people are comparing fighters to only being in mma venues and all other venues just arent the cuts.

probably just my reading comprehension abilities.

i still find it funny how many people will jog down to the ol name calling though.

oh and i like the capitols for the emphasis. it helped me to get more offended by that wonderful name calling there.

[Lucas]

just a question Ross, cause i know your in the know cause its your guys.

how many guys do you have that are strict sanshou fighters? again, pure curiosity.

you seem to be one of the few actively making the cross with getting people who are learning some CMA concepts, principles, techs, etc. that are getting those guys into the MMA.

of your guys that start in san shou how many decide to cross into the MMA?

of what CMA material that you teach do you drill consitantly in your MMA programs?

how many strictly MMA fighters do you have?

and how many fighters that compete in both venues?

edit:

also it seems NYC is like the hottest spot for san shou events, am i right?

why do you think this is so?

[lkfmdc]

how many guys do you have that are strict sanshou fighters? again, pure curiosity.

you seem to be one of the few actively making the cross with getting people who are learning some CMA concepts, principles, techs, etc. that are getting those guys into the MMA.

In my gym, pretty much all my guys fight everything, by that I mean San Da, Muay Thai and MMA. American kickboxing is too limiting, as is amateur boxing (and amateur boxing is it's own world and game). But San da, Muay Thai and MMA are related and intertwined.

Guys usually have a "strength", some start off doing more KB (San da or Muay Thai) fights, others start off in MMA. All eventually can do all. Ian's MMA debut is going to be a thing of beauty (or terror, depending upon your point of view)

All the San da gyms seem exactly the same. Cung Le, Scott Sheeley, Mike Altman, Rudi Ott all have guys doing stand up and jiu jitsu, doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA

San Da people fight....

of what CMA material that you teach do you drill consitantly in your MMA programs?

We have our stand up classes and we have our BJJ classes. Everyone pretty much does both. The stand up classes are my San da program. Depending upon your views, eitehr I am a "sell out" or I am teaching CMA everyday several times a day. The principles and theories are all still there if you ask me, as are many of the techniques

[Lucas]

All the San da gyms seem exactly the same. Cung Le, Scott Sheeley, Mike Altman, Rudi Ott all have guys doing stand up and jiu jitsu, doing San Da, Muay Thai and MMA

IMO this is a really good thing. Uniformity of a sort will help everyone get on the same page.

We have our stand up classes and we have our BJJ classes. Everyone pretty much does both. The stand up classes are my San da program. Depending upon your views, eitehr I am a "sell out" or I am teaching CMA everyday several times a day. The principles and theories are all still there if you ask me, as are many of the techniques

I surely wouldnt see that as "sell out" its just how it is. some people can bitch and whine all they want. fuck em! besideds records tell it all. anyone who calls you a 'sell out' should be able to produce a healthy fight record for their students.....right?

[Shaolinlueb]

yeah, lord forbid we ever question anything, we should blindly follow whatever our teachers tell us, even when it defies common logic and actual experience

i'm not talking about the mystical crap ross.
a good school should have all elements in it. stopping the shoot etc. what happens if you go to ground. take downs, throws etc.

90% of them are in it for the buck nowadays. this is my point. good kung fu schools are well rounded. most of them are just fake things that build up people's ego's by teaching the mystical family only secrets.

[Shaolinlueb]

just because i do tcma forms doesn't mean i have a tcma mind. I dont believe in any of that mystical crap and family only techniques. i could care less about it. moral traditions are good to have though.
i usually wont even bother with most of the "Chinese master's" out there because 90% of them have no experience fighting out there at all. All they have is application and theory. too many times do i see schools doing same repetitive movements and others calling it good. all i can do is laugh. there are a couple Chinese masters who know what they are talking about. I'm not gonna mark out now.

I see kung fu as the original MMA. shaolin temple embraced all these fighting styles. My sifu did judo, tae kwan do in the past. do we incorporate judo throws, take downs and stuff into our curriculum? of course, why? because it works. take what works throw out what doesn't. hasnt then always been what improving the styles over the decades has been about? maybe its because i think a lot of it is just kung fu, where people are too concerned with breaking things up ionto different styles. have i lost faith in kung fu? no. do i look down on other martial arts? no. i just think some are better for things then others. Do i like BJJ? not really, but it is really good for the ground work. do i like karate? hell no, but there are some really nasty karate fighters out there. do i like neo karate? no, but there are.... ok that martial art is bullsh*t they should go do gymnastics instead, along with what the modern wushu forms are becoming.

my point is, too many people here seem to have lost faith and can't wait to bash kung fu.

maybe its because there is so much bull**** out there. i wonder how many chinese guys learned some different styles (nothing to call them master or not the whole thing), came over here to a rural town and started out a style and have people believing it goes back many years. and people idolize this crap.

[unkokusai]

why do you take kung fu if all you do is dog it for its unrealisticness, its inferior training methods, and "it isnt as good as BJJ".

why don't you just quit your school, cause it sounds like a bad one already if you keep on talking about how other styles are better, and just go to a fighting school and do that Gracie Competition stuff. or mma ring stuff.

more power too you. then go find your way over to www.mma.tv and enjoy that.

What a whiny sack-o-crap.

[WinterPalm]

The path set out in TCMA, from good instruction, ie learning combative applications from day one, is one that is very tough. You are made to think and to figure out and to train very hard on YOUR time. It is a personal involvement that many people cannot handle. Sadly, it is a form of teaching very rare nowdays. Most want to be handed everything and disregard thinking for themselves and questioning what they are taught and how to use it.

Although I think this should have stayed in the main forum, Shaolinlueb is right, why bother with a Kung Fu forum if you're better than kung fu?

It really is bizarre.

[DPL]

...Shaolinlueb is right, why bother with a Kung Fu forum if you're better than kung fu?

But that's the whole point, isn't it? If these guys think they've learned something better than the traditional kung fu that's out there, let 'em share their thoughts. If they can't do it tactfully, who cares? It's a freaking Internet forum. The beauty of the Internet is it's anonymous and allows you to be blunt without worrying about traditional social mores.

The arguments are some of the most educational bits on the forum, unless you're involved and you're trying to make a point with someone who has the reading comprehension of a pre-schooler, but that's more a communication thing than a real issue.

The truth hurts sometimes. And some of the MMA/non-kung fu folks are every bit as full of sh!t as some of the traditionalists on here. But some of them aren't and have things to offer that 'modern, traditional kung fu' has often lost sight of. I'm a forms guy and probably always will be because I enjoy not only the educational package that is a form (applications, internal, external, history/mythology, poetry, etc.), but also because it feels right. But I'm under no illusions that any one art or way of training has all the answers, just like no one religion or political party has all the answers.

I enjoy the exchange of ideas, and the blunt nature of it. Which is really sort of odd because the petty sniping used to annoy the sh!t out of me but now it's popcorn-munching entertainment.

[Lucas]

The arguments are some of the most educational bits on the forum

agreed.

petty name calling and insulting aside. if you just sift through a lot of the personal attacks and BS, even the people often spouting this inuslting drivel will give you choice information in the process.

you just have to be able to find the flowers amongst the weeds is all.

[TenTigers]

lkfmdc,I see your points. Here's a question: I'm sure you have come across people who do TCMA and have the skill, prowess, etc to be MMA fighters. You know the type-Guys who are just freakin good,powerful,brutal,etc -the ones where you think, "Omigod, this guy would clean up in a MMA event." Have you ever asked them why they don't? And if so, what were their responses?

[Three Harmonies]

To answer the original question (sorry for arriving late at the party) I do not train with people who do not know how to fight. Period. It is not a systematic issue, it is a personal issue. Too many people who do not know how to apply, or are too wrapped up in their ego to share their understanding of application. Either way I have no tolerance for either. I have experienced both, and wasted many, many years, and tons of money too.
I now train with people who can consistantly, constantly, overwhelmingly kick my ass and teach me how to fight better.
So that is why I train in the CMA. I like them, and I have the good fortune to have found some of the best teachers in the world (or at least this hemisphere).
Cheers
Jake