Because we deserve it . . .

[Knifefighter]

Fighters do get better the more they fight, agreed, this is basics 101, everyone knows this. The thing is, from what I have seen, they spend lots of time drilling, condtioning and sparring, not just exclusively sparring. If you follow T's philosophy, why do anything else except spar? Why run, lift weights, hit the bag, skip etc... when fighting is all you need?

Almost all the supplemental things modern fighters do conditioning-wise are activity specific. There are sound scientific reasons why they do these things and sound scientific reasons for not doing things like forms, chi sao and wooden dummy stuff.

I know Victor thinks I am just pulling this stuff out of my ass, but I have a degree in exercise science/human performance and that background is where most of my opinions come from... not some ingrained hate for wing chun.

All arts, including the ones I expouse, have at least some limitations when you look at them from a scientific human performance standpoint. That's why the more progressive ones are constantly evolving as we learn more about human performance.

[Liddel]

Theres always going to be clear lines between those who want to do a MA for hobby, for protection and those who want to compete at high levels....

IMHO its about time people stopped using the actions and philosophy of one group as the yard stick for another.

I agree with a great deal of what T and Dale have said but i have my own ideas about which areas the 'criticisms' they've shared do and do not fit into.

some will just never understand that....

DREW

[YungChun]

why they do these things and sound scientific reasons for not doing things like forms, chi sao and wooden dummy stuff.

C'mon Dale..

The forms and ChiSao are Wing Chun specific training.. OF COURSE they are not going to train things from WCK if they don't do Wing Chun..

There are many benefits to ChiSao training for learning WCK.. If you would have read any of the posts explaining this..

IT IS CONTACT SPECIFIC CONDITIONED RESPONSE TRAINING... Only in this way can you train people to develop all of the basics of the system, which often involve developing CONTACT REFLEXES.. You can't just have people spar with person X and expect them to learn how to use feel and apply the contact applications without having FELT these things through CONTACT TRAINING..

The problem is that they don't take their training to the next level in most cases.. You make assertions that the guy you worked with who is a student of Phil probably or does have skills but you go on to say that it's not because of the classical training.. Well I ask you--how you can come off and speak for this person about what helped him develop the skills, that is pretty presumptuous..

Many of us HAVE BENEFITTED from this training and no matter how good YOU ARE or what you THINK YOU KNOW you DO NOT know what other people have benefited from, nor is it correct for you to speak for others who feel they have benefited from said training. Speak for yourself...

[YungChun]

Theres always going to be clear lines between those who want to do a MA for hobby, for protection and those who want to compete at high levels....

I agree.. BUT too many CMA teachers and schools have taken the FIGHT out of the FIGHT SYSTEM... Instead of trying to get students to the point where their ChiSao is "perfect" and make them wait YEARS before giving them the green light to move on to whatever the next STEP is in their training they should be stressing SPARRING and COMPETING in various fighting venues..

If this was the case and WCK folks were fighting there would be no need to constantly debate WCK fighting "theory" and instead just look and see what WCK fighting is.

[Knifefighter]

The forms and ChiSao are Wing Chun specific training.. OF COURSE they are not going to train things from WCK if they don't do Wing Chun..

Actually, if you have almost anyone with a degree in the human performance field analyze the objectives and realities of fighting and compare those with the training of chi sao, Mook Jong, and forms, they will tell you pretty the same thing I am saying.

There are many benefits to ChiSao training for learning WCK.. If you would have read any of the posts explaining this..

I'm sure there are, but those benefits don't have much to do with fighting.

You make assertions that the guy you worked with who is a student of Phil probably or does have skills but you go on to say that it's not because of the classical training.. Well I ask you--how you can come off and speak for this person about what helped him develop the skills, that is pretty presumptuous..

I am stating my opinion based on my education and experience in the field of human performance. Based on what I know about the field, my opinion is that you could take a guy like him and make him 10 times better by having him train with a more modern MMA approach.

[YungChun]

Actually, if you have almost anyone with a degree in the human performance field analyze the objectives and realities of fighting and compare those with the training of chi sao, Mook Jong, and forms, they will tell you pretty the same thing I am saying.

Actually I have worked with people with these kinds of qualifications and strangely those who are familiar with the contact training think it is completely valid..

Why don't you share how you think the CONTACT FIGHTING techniques and tactics of WCK should be trained other than through contact training <chi sao>..

I am stating my opinion based on my education and experience in the field of human performance.

RIGHT..

So you meet a guy who trains WCK, yes that means the classical DRILLS and CHISAO, complement his abilities and then share with us the revelation that his WCK skills are not a product of his WCK training.

Very impressive..and scientific.

[Knifefighter]

Actually I have worked with people with these kinds of qualifications and strangely those who are familiar with the contact training think it is completely valid..
Why don't you share how you think the CONTACT FIGHTING techniques and tactics of WCK should be trained other than through contact training <chi sao>..

Learning WCK through chi sao is fine for learning WCK. Learning to fight, however, should be done more along the ways that modern fighting systems do it, which is to start with the fight itself and let that be the guide for the drills and techniques... and don't let non-specific techniques or drills leak into the program.

So you meet a guy who trains WCK, yes that means the classical DRILLS and CHISAO, complement his abilities and then share with us the revelation that his WCK skills are not a product of his WCK training.
Very impressive..and scientific.

I am basing my opinion based on my knowledge of other scientific studies that have been done over the years, which is how science is actaully applied in the real world. I was not conducting a scientific study myself.

And, as I said before, there is a differentiation between WCK skills and fighting skills.

[sihing]

Almost all the supplemental things modern fighters do conditioning-wise are activity specific. There are sound scientific reasons why they do these things and sound scientific reasons for not doing things like forms, chi sao and wooden dummy stuff.

I know Victor thinks I am just pulling this stuff out of my ass, but I have a degree in exercise science/human performance and that background is where most of my opinions come from... not some ingrained hate for wing chun.

All arts, including the ones I expouse, have at least some limitations when you look at them from a scientific human performance standpoint. That's why the more progressive ones are constantly evolving as we learn more about human performance.

Well all I can say is that I punch allot harder now than I did with my previous TWC training, I've felt it, and so have others. As well, I punched alot harder after my first year in TWC, than I did with no training at all. I'm not saying that WC offers the only or best way of doing things, but to deny it totally is foolish. Regarding dummy work and forms, these are basics. Anything that you do alone is basics pure and simple. The problem is, probably due to movies and media hype, people think the secret form will make them a super fighter. Anyone and everyone that knows anything about fighting knows this is not true. Chi sau is one step up from basics, it takes you from static unalive, predetermined actions and applies them in a "more" alive environment. Believe it or not there are more stages beyond chi sau training in WC, again the problem lies in people getting stuck in the progression of things. That's their fault, the teachers fault, not the arts.

After watching the Human Weapon espisodes, anyone can justify anything scientifically. Elbow down, connected with the hip, while rooting is powerful. Doing it while standing still, means nothing. The key is to be able to do that while you and your opponent are moving and he is trying to hit as well.

James

P.S. I believe there is a report from a kinesiologist anaylzing HFY Wing Chun and how effective what they teach is biomechanically in the Mastering Kung Fu Book? Who do we listen too??

[YungChun]

Learning WCK through chi sao is fine for learning WCK. Learning to fight, however, should be done more along the ways that modern fighting systems do it, which is to start with the fight itself and let that be the guide for the drills and techniques... and don't let non-specific techniques or drills leak into the program.



I am basing my opinion based on my knowledge of other scientific studies that have been done over the years, which is how science is actaully applied in the real world. I was not conducting a scientific study myself.

And, as I said before, there is a differentiation between WCK skills and fighting skills.

Right so what you ARE REALLY SAYING is that Wing Chun tactics and techniques have no place in 'REAL FIGHTNG' right?

-----------------------------

What I find amusing is that these guys will be the first ones to tell you that pad work is great, hitting bags is great.. But ChiSao where you are actually trying to HIT AND CONTROL an alive and moving partner while he is trying to HIT AND CONTROL you is not relevant..

The real question is how far some people's heads are up their butts..

[sihing]

C'mon Dale..

The forms and ChiSao are Wing Chun specific training.. OF COURSE they are not going to train things from WCK if they don't do Wing Chun..

There are many benefits to ChiSao training for learning WCK.. If you would have read any of the posts explaining this..

IT IS CONTACT SPECIFIC CONDITIONED RESPONSE TRAINING... Only in this way can you train people to develop all of the basics of the system, which often involve developing CONTACT REFLEXES.. You can't just have people spar with person X and expect them to learn how to use feel and apply the contact applications without having FELT these things through CONTACT TRAINING..

The problem is that they don't take their training to the next level in most cases.. You make assertions that the guy you worked with who is a student of Phil probably or does have skills but you go on to say that it's not because of the classical training.. Well I ask you--how you can come off and speak for this person about what helped him develop the skills, that is pretty presumptuous..

Many of us HAVE BENEFITTED from this training and no matter how good YOU ARE or what you THINK YOU KNOW you DO NOT know what other people have benefited from, nor is it correct for you to speak for others who feel they have benefited from said training. Speak for yourself...

I agree, good post

[sihing]

Learning WCK through chi sao is fine for learning WCK. Learning to fight, however, should be done more along the ways that modern fighting systems do it, which is to start with the fight itself and let that be the guide for the drills and techniques... and don't let non-specific techniques or drills leak into the program.



I am basing my opinion based on my knowledge of other scientific studies that have been done over the years, which is how science is actaully applied in the real world. I was not conducting a scientific study myself.

And, as I said before, there is a differentiation between WCK skills and fighting skills.

I agree, Chi sau is WC specific things. The reason you start learning "Non" related things to fighting first is simple, your learning a new way to move, react, position, face. Like T has said in the past, everyone instinctively knows how to fight, all we are doing is refining it and making a bit more efficient, simple and direct in application. The goal is never to perform tan sau, pak sau, or stick to your opponent, that is the training part of Wing Chun, the goal is to destroy, hit, subdue, submit, whatever it takes to defeat the person in front of you. We just use a differnt method or engine than you to get to the same place. Tweak that engine, test it out in different environments, refine it a bit more, test it again and again and you will have something useful. WC is a "TRAINING" system, not a method of fighting. Only the individual can decide what to do in a fight, not a prearranged, 300 yr old fighting method

James

[YungChun]

I agree, Chi sau is WC specific things. The reason you start learning "Non" related things to fighting

It's all related to WCK fighting... That is WCK fighting tools and tactics.. In the early stages you break it down though, just like any art does..

And keep this in mind: Do you really think the system hasn't evolved in the last 300 years? Hell I have seen it evolve in the last week...

What (unbiased) Dale seems to be saying is that what is in WCK the tools, tactics and so on, have no place in real fighting.

[Liddel]

I'm sure there are, but those benefits don't have much to do with fighting.

The elbow behaviour - one of VT's most common and consistent elements (even between all the different lineages we have) is taught and made habbit by way of Chi Dan Sao and forms, in the very early stages of ones overall training.

As a result you'll see the same behaviour of my elbow displayed in Chi Sao as being the same as when i fight, bar the dynamics of a totally moving environment . This doesnt mean i dont have things from outside the box also....

You would also find the energy use in the main parts of my vt engine (the shoulder the elbow the wrist and the waist) would show more similarities between fighting and the chi sao drills i do, than differences.

So for me there are direct applications of Chi Sao and forms to my fighting Behavior. The drills are just to concentrate and isolate certain elements and wont do me harm if i realise their position/relevance in the training food chain.

I agree though there are other ways to train these elements as you see fit and other aspects of training are needed to support them.

But one cannot say IMHO that there is no correlation to fighting unless you have only touched the surface or are looking for shapes.

Our minds are what makes or breaks this approach.

DREW

[sihing]

It's all releated to WCK fighting... That is WCK fighting tools and tactics.. In the early stages you break it down though, just like any art does..

And keep this in mind: Do you think the system has not evolved in the last 300 years? Hell I have seen in evolve in the last week...

What (unbiased) Dale is saying is that what is in WCK the tools, tactics and so on, have no place in real fighing.

I don't know if he's saying that exactly, I believe T and him have a problem with the TMA model of forms, chi sau, dummy, pole and knives alone as a way to teach someone how to fight effectively. I agree that the art has evolved. Sifu Lam has evolved his WC very differently than what he learned strictly from WSL, due to many factors, his size, his experience, his natural abilities and attributes, his genius. He could kick my a$$ pretty easy, and I'm almost 20 yrs his junior and in way better shape. He has too much experience, knowledge, skill and has a FIGHTER mentality, whereas I am don't.

As for the term WCK fighting, I don't believe in that. I believe there is just fighting, and what you take into a fight is your experience, your training, your guts, and how your body moves (this is the only part that WC has an effect on). For me, I am in the learning stage so try to stay strict with the WC, but that doesn't mean I can't throw in a left hook and low round kick to take someone out if I have too

James

[sihing]

The elbow behaviour - one of VT's most common and consistent elements (even between all the different lineages we have) is taught and made habbit by way of Chi Dan Sao and forms, in the very early stages of ones overall training.

As a result you'll see the same behaviour of my elbow displayed in Chi Sao as being the same as when i fight, bar the dynamics of a totally moving environment . This doesnt mean i dont have things from outside the box also....

You would also find the energy use in the main parts of my vt engine (the shoulder the elbow the wrist and the waist) would show more similarities between fighting and the chi sao drills i do, than differences.

So for me there are direct applications of Chi Sao and forms to my fighting Behavior. The drills are just to concentrate and isolate certain elements and wont do me harm if i realise their position/relevance in the training food chain.

I agree though there are other ways to train these elements as you see fit and other aspects of training are needed to support them.

But one cannot say IMHO that there is no correlation to fighting unless you have only touched the surface or are looking for shapes.

Our minds are what makes or breaks this approach.

DREW

Good post Drew, it may not be exact (and I think alot of people try to look for it when they watch a WC man fighting, tan sau's fok sau's, sitting and sticking), but what you have learned will come out naturally. When you see Sifu Lam on the DVD's, or in the real, you see very little of what "WC should look like". This is because he is so far from the basics, and purely natural with his movements that it is all there within him, plus he uses it when needed and is not a slave to the system.

James