Because we deserve it . . .

[YungChun]

For me, if something is proved via genuine experience, it is no longer "theory". A fighter talking about "theory" is talking about something very different from the nonfighter. What the fighter is talking about is a pattern or consistency they have seen from fighting.

No one cares what it means "to you"...

Many of us have used "classical" WCK training theory, training concepts, drills, etc, whatever that means to you, in fighting/sparring/self defense and so it too falls under experience..

When I fight I do not try to 'do a theory' I just fight.. What I do however is a product of training AND experience.

Prove that your method of training Wing Chun is better by posting a clip of anyone who has not done any of the classical training, fighting and beating quality people with WCK; Otherwise I have no reason to believe you..

[t_niehoff]

Wing Chun is a system of training and fighting concepts.. Where concepts amount to a mental model which acts as a common thread that the brain can use to aid in applying and training the tactics of the system..

Without that training what is Wing Chun?

Without that training how is Wing Chun trained?

Tell us how Wing Chun is trained without using WCK material forms/drills?

Prove that your method of training Wing Chun is better by posting a clip of anyone who has not done any of the classical training, fighting and beating quality people with WCK; Otherwise I have no reason to believe you..

I gather, you don't believe in perfection work? If not then I think you are dead wrong and a little silly...

How is boxing or wrestling or judo or muay thai or BJJ trained without forms? They seem to do OK. Forms are silly if you grasp the open skill development process -- you can't develop open skills, like fighting or tennis or basketball from doing forms. And even as a learning platform, forms are not really useful.

Just use a sparring platform to teach and train -- that's what all the functional martial arts do. Teach the fundamental skills and tools of the fighting method, show how to play the game, and then play the game. Simple.

You don't have to believe *me*. These things don't rest on my shoulders. Just look at what all good fighters are doing -- they're using this same process. As do all other good open skill athletes.

[YungChun]

Just look at what all good fighters are doing -- they're using this same process. As do all other good open skill athletes.

Many of them also do perfection work..

WCK has perfection work too and it plays an important role in 'fine tuning' different parts of the system in a progressive resistance, variable stress format—ChiSao.

A process that can easily be found—paralleled—in other arts like BJJ where folks isolate and perfect in much the same way if not the same drill...

Show me 1 single example of ANY 'Wing Chun guy' kicking ass who has no classical training..

[gabe]

No, it's not logical.

A person doesn't even need to be a WCK practitioner to see the nonsense, the bullshido, in WCK. All it takes is for someone to be clear-thinking and clear-seeing. But WCK, like all the TMAs, programs or brainwashes you. People in TMAs, includng WCK, believe things not because there is evidence -- that they've seen for themselves what they believe -- but because they are told things, things they want to believe. And these things go against what is known to be true.

For example, there is a certain specific process that leads to development in open skills. Sport people and scientific researchers have recognized this for over 100 years. Fighting, regardless of the method, is an open skill. People who use that process, boxers, judoka, MT, wreslters, BJJ, etc., develop very high levels of fighitng skills. Anyone who doesn't use that process - regardless of what else they do -- can't develop good skills. The TMAs, inlcuding WCK, doesn't use that process. Neither does tai ji. Or aikido. Yet people in the TMAs continue to believe otherwise, even though they can't provide any evidence to support their claims.

It's simple if you are not brainwashed --

Uh, actually, it's very logical. When a person makes personal attacks, we look at the person making them. When a person judges, we look at that person's qualifications to judge...or criticize.

The rest of your post has no relevance to mine and why bother addressing the same old strawman argument. But I'll address it. In the real world, you had an opportunity to spar with real people from tma. Where would you stand if you were housed by one of them, who didn't use your approved process? You accuse others of not wanting to spar to protect their livelihoods. Why didn't you? To protect your internet personna?

In the real world, I have had my a$$ handed to me by people I'd call MMAists AND people I'd call TMAists. Great lessons learned. You really need to step outside of your theoretical world and join the real world, where things aren't as black and white as you'd like to paint them. But stay safe with your little group of specifically picked sparring partners. Much safer for the ego when you know what to expect.

[t_niehoff]

Uh, actually, it's very logical. When a person makes personal attacks, we look at the person making them. When a person judges, we look at that person's qualifications to judge...or criticize.

I've not attacked anyone personally on this forum. I am challenging views. Views.

And I am using evidence and reason to support my views and challenge others. "Qualifications" aren't necessary. This is part of the traditional mindset -- who are *you* (as though you have to be worthy) to challenge the view? You don't need to be anyone or to be "qualified" to point out nonsense. If someone said they could levitate do I need to be a physicist to point out that's utter nonsense?

The rest of your post has no relevance to mine and why bother addressing the same old strawman argument. But I'll address it. In the real world, you had an opportunity to spar with real people from tma. Where would you stand if you were housed by one of them, who didn't use your approved process? You accuse others of not wanting to spar to protect their livelihoods. Why didn't you? To protect your internet personna?

Internet persona? Are you serious? LOL!

I very deliberately and intentionally don't hold myself out as an authority. I haven't given myself a title, I don't take money to teach people, etc. As I said, I am a student of the game. But if someone does hold themselves out as an authority, they should be able to back up what they say. If you teach what you can't do, then you are a charlatan.

In the real world, I have had my a$$ handed to me by people I'd call MMAists AND people I'd call TMAists. Great lessons learned. You really need to step outside of your theoretical world and join the real world, where things aren't as black and white as you'd like to paint them. But stay safe with your little group of specifically picked sparring partners. Much safer for the ego when you know what to expect.

The fact that some TMAist got their ass handed to them by other TMAists is not surprising -- one poor fighter defeats another poor fighter. Where are the TMAists that can defeat decent fighters? They seem to exist only in stories. That is the real world. You can wake up and smell the coffee or hit the snooze and continue to slumber. If you wake up, you may begin to ask yourself why there aren't any TMAists who haven't shifted to the more modern open skill developmental process that have ever demonstrated good levels of fighting skills.

[YungChun]

why there aren't any TMAists who haven't shifted to the more modern open skill developmental process that have ever demonstrated good levels of fighting skills.

Show us the ones who have.. Show us the ones who have discarded the forms, the drills, the chi sao who are kicking ass on MMA.

Then show me the results of same when the WCK man has no classical base... You can't because you, they and I all do...

"We" agree that you must spar/fight to gain a high level of skill.. "We" agree, the better the people you fight the better you will get... "We" do not agree you must trash the rest of the training to do former...

If you had sparred with TMA X at the Cleveland "meet" and you had been beaten how would you rationalize that?

[t_niehoff]

Many of them also do perfection work..

WCK has perfection work too and it plays an important role in 'fine tuning' different parts of the system in a progressive resistance, variable stress format—ChiSao.

A process that can easily be found—paralleled—in other arts like BJJ where folks isolate and perfect in much the same way if not the same drill...

Of course all open skill athletes work on bettering their skills. Perfection work? You can't get "perfection", or even close to it, from a form or unrealistic drill -- since what needs to be "perfect" are dynamic fighting skills. You get better skilled at catching and throwing a ball by practicing catching and throwing a ball, not by doing forms or unrealistic drills that represent that.

Show me 1 single example of ANY 'Wing Chun guy' kicking ass who has no classical training..

Of course they have all done the classical training; we've all had to go through it -- that doesn't prove the classical training is what gave them the skills. Show me one who has only done the classical training and *not* the open skill development process, i.e., trained like all modern fighters train, that has proved to have good fighting skills (by holding their own against good fighters).

We can look at all manner of fighting methods and we see the same things -- the functional martial arts eschew forms and unrealistic drills consistently produce good results, whereas the nonfunctional martial arts, the TMAS, which consist for the most part of forms and unrealistic drills, don't.

[YungChun]

Of course all open skill athletes work on bettering their skills. Perfection work? You can't get "perfection", or even close to it, from a form or unrealistic drill

Isolating a WCK technique in ChiSao and working it over and over at progressive resistance is no different that a BJJ man working a particular technique with another BJJ man in a cooperative manner, over and over and over again with the proper, energy and positional conditions with variable resistance.. Neither is fighting.. Both are drilling, both are perfection work that lead to fighting/sparring.. Why do they isolate and repeat? The same reason we do.. If you can't see that then you are as blind as a bat.

If you think that there is a better way to isolate and refine WCK inside work then prove it or shut up...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The fact that some TMAist got their ass handed to them by other TMAists is not surprising -- one poor fighter defeats another poor fighter. Where are the TMAists that can defeat decent fighters? They seem to exist only in stories.

What is YOUR definition of a Traditional Martial Artist ?
It seems you are confusing people who train to fight and those that "just train" and lumping them into the same category because they may train the "same" system.

Remember Judo and Wrestling are TMA, as it kyokushin, for example.

[t_niehoff]

Show us the ones who have.. Show us the ones who have discarded the forms, the drills, the chi sao who are kicking ass on MMA.

Then show me the results of same when the WCK man has no classical base... You can't because you, they and I all do...

They all have that classical base because that is all any of us have been taught. The good ones, the ones with good skills, have gone beyond that. The unfortunate thing is that most continue to fob off that stuff because that is what is "ex[pected" when people to go learn WCK.

Why do you need a form to chi sao to teach you how to punch? Or how to do anything?

"We" agree that you must spar/fight to gain a high level of skill.. "We" agree, the better the people you fight the better you will get... "We" do not agree you must trash the rest of the training to do former...

Hack away the unessentials. If you really aprreciate what an open skill is -- you will appreciate how forms are useless in learning or developing skills. Why use forms to teach tennis or boxing or WCK? You don't need them. Think skills. Skills. Like thrwoing a ball. There is no one "correct or ideal form" as it is a dynamic action that will be adjusted everytime you do it.

Unrealistic drills can have their place, for example in learning a movement or skill. But after that, they become liabilities, not assets. Practicing unrealistic skills your whole life will not make them realistic skills.

If you had sparred with TMA X at the Cleveland "meet" and you had been beaten how would you rationalize that?

Look at it a different way -- show me the guys who only do the classical training that can do what they train to do in fighting good people (use their WCK tools as they train to do them). And btw, that was my problem with Cleveland: I wanted to invite good people, good nonWCK fighters. Lots of big guys can fight. But can they make their training work -- fight as they train to do? In other words, do what they do in training in fighting. It's not just a matter of winning. It's also how they win. So if someone does WCK and then kickboxes in their sparring, where is the WCK training? Hell, why do they need WCK to kickbox (however good kickboxers they might be)?

[YungChun]

What is YOUR definition of a Traditional Martial Artist?

He at least asserts that any and all martial artists that train forms and/or do classical drills automatically suck and can't fight..

[YungChun]

Look at it a different way -- show me the guys who only do the classical training that can do what they train to do in fighting

I don't know anyone who trains that way... Who the fuk are you talking about and why should I care?

I started sparring before I started WCK.. I used WCK as a tool to help stop getting my azz kicked in..

And btw, that was my problem with Cleveland: I wanted to invite good people, good nonWCK fighters. Lots of big guys can fight. But can they make their training work -- fight as they train to do? In other words, do what they do in training in fighting. It's not just a matter of winning. It's also how they win. So if someone does WCK and then kickboxes in their sparring, where is the WCK training? Hell, why do they need WCK to kickbox (however good kickboxers they might be)?

What a tangled web of contradictions and self deception.

If you really buy this crap then you need help...

You wanted to invite good non WCK because you didn't want to spar with WCK folks who were doing WCK the wrong way.. WAA

How about this: You came up with an <really odd> excuse not to come so you wouldn't get your ass handed to you by a TMA...

[t_niehoff]

Isolating a WCK technique in ChiSao and working it over and over at progressive resistance is no different that a BJJ man working a particular technique with another BJJ man in a cooperative manner, over and over and over again with the proper, energy and positional conditions with variable resistance.. Neither is fighting.. Both are drilling, both are perfection work that lead to fighting/sparring.. Why do they isolate and repeat? The same reason we do.. If you can't see that then you are as blind as a bat.

If you think that there is a better way to isolate and refine WCK inside work then prove it or shut up...

In BJJ, we do "dead" drilling to develop better coordination, to refine movement, etc. But, even so, those movements are being practiced as they will be done in fighitng -- so you get that 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence. And the "dead" drilling is a very, very small part of the training (less than 10%). The core of the training is live rolling -- sparring.

In WCK, the movements in chi sao do not correspond to how they will be done in fighting. If you did those movement in fighting like you did in chi sao, you'd get killed. They "work" in chi sao only because both sides are using preprogrammed chi sao responses. So when you practice chi sao, you are not "perfecting" anything. The proof of this is simple: does your fighting look just like your chi sao? If not, then you are not practicing your movements as they will be done in fighting. You are practicing one way and fighting another. This is poor training. You are actually reinforcing unproductive movement habits.

[t_niehoff]

I don't know anyone who trains that way... Who the fuk are you talking about and why should I care?

I started sparring before I started WCK.. I used WCK as a tool to help stop getting my azz kicked in..

What a tangled web of contradictions and self deception.

If you really buy this crap then you need help...

You wanted to invite good non WCK because you didn't want to spar with WCK folks who were doing WCK the wrong way.. WAA

How about this: You came up with an <really odd> excuse not to come so you wouldn't get your ass handed to you by a TMA...

No, I didn't want to take the time to travel to Cleveland to waste my time.

[t_niehoff]

What is YOUR definition of a Traditional Martial Artist ?
It seems you are confusing people who train to fight and those that "just train" and lumping them into the same category because they may train the "same" system.

Remember Judo and Wrestling are TMA, as it kyokushin, for example.

I bet if you asked judoka and wrestlers if they were TMAists, I think they would say not.

All fighting methods are traditions. But that doesn't make them TMAs. TMAs are those that hold on to the traditional training methodology and traditional mindset (they go hand in hand). Judo and wrestling both use the open skill development process and reject the traditional mindset.

In FMAs, for example, the Dog Brothers and Raymond Floro, both have taken escrima out of the traditional martial art realm.