Literati Tradition: Neidan Meditation

[Doc Stier]

Quite so! The game can still be alot of fun to play, even if you don't hit a home-run every time at bat!

Doc

[tai chi hermit]

so does anyone have a site w/ info on bringing food into the mountains or making while there or anything of this sort.

thanks

[Doc Stier]

hermit:

Check these sites out for great info on subsistence living skills, and opportunities to participate in some awesome on-site learning programs, whether short-term weekend workshops or year-round living and learning experiences:

http://www.hopspress.com/Books/Revie...ticipating.htm

http://www.earthways.net/

http://www.1stalaskaoutdoorschool.com/index.htm

http://www.primitive.org/

http://www.dacres.org/Opportunities.htm

http://www.jackmtn.com/skills.html

http://www.primitive.org/nothing.htm

Doc

[cjurakpt]

hey Scott - sorry, missed this one

Actually D.T. Suzuki, in his commentary on the Sutra of Hui-Neng, states that according to Hui-Neng, this is exactly what the mind does . The only thing that may be used to solve the problem of the mind is the mind itself. It is mind turning back on itself that observes itself and knows itself. We commonly call this introspection.

well, I would agree at the beginning - in other words, it is the mind that realizes that, in the words of the Great Sage Daffy Duck - "sumptin's amiss here", and so one consciously embarks on a quest of self-improvement (first mistake! 20 blows!); from the perspective of my experience in Ch'an practice, you then can "do" any number of meditative exercises (counting breath, mantra recitation, etc.) - and one is certainly using mind to monitor one's internal state - surfing the balance of agitation and dllness (if you're not thinking about paying bills, you're falling asleep, right?); at some point, the mind "settles", and one is no longer "thinking" about what is going on, there is simply perception of suchness, without the filter of analysis; the "idea" is that the mind no longer functions as an intermediary, but steps out of the way - this "state of awareness", if one has experienced it, is like a tall glass of cool mountain spring water - crisp yet without flavor, and very refreshing (from personal experience that's as far as I can tell you - the rest would be passing on the dregs of someone elses meal, not just of my own!); but the point is, if it is mind introspecting, it is not doing so in the "everday" sense of it - you are not "figuring out" what is wrong and how to fix it (unlike psychotherapy), so that's what I guess I meant...

also, thinking about Hui Neng - the way he became awakened, according to the tory, he simply heard the Bddha Dharma recited once, and got it - was he using mind?

When we transcend our conditioned interpretation of experiences it is easy to turn off the survival mechanism. This is because one perceives the inherent illusion of fear to begin with. In the end this is the greater or true survival mechanism. One's survival is not in question therefore there is nothing to fear. When there is nothing to fear our chances of physical survival are increased as a natural consequence.

it's an interesting proposition - I don't disagree, but it seems a bit paradoxical - when you stop caring about whether you live or die, it suggests you may not do something that would otherwise save life; at the same time, perhaps ones field of awareness is such that one is never in the wrong place at the wrong time? or perhaps none is able to respond in a life-sustaining manner but without the fear response mediating it...in a vry small way, I can say I have experienced the benefit of this approach in dealing with certain aspects of life - the big one is fear of death - it's easy to think you have overcome that, but since we have minimal opportunity to test if that is really the case, it's hard to say...

anyway, thanks for the input...

[Doc Stier]

cjurakpt:

Once again, for the sake of staying on topic, and with all due respect, how does most of this ongoing reference to and discussion of Chan Buddhism realistically relate to the thread topic of Neidan Taoist Alchemy? It seems that most of the posters on this thread have no personal knowledge of Taoist Alchemy, no personal experience with Taoist Alchemy practices, or simply no personal interest in the subject matter, and thus have nothing to contribute to a discussion of the topic.

The continuing discussion of Chan Buddhism on this thread has certainly been quite interesting and informative, but really deserves to have its own thread, IMO, since it is not the topic of this thread.

Doc

[tai chi hermit]

this kinda pertains to the topic..... taoists really look up those who have discovered/reached immortality/longevity, but that is not what is natural. TAO-ists not being natural and following along with aging mean....?

[cjurakpt]

Once again, for the sake of staying on topic, and with all due respect, how does most of this ongoing reference to and discussion of Chan Buddhism realistically relate to the thread topic of Neidan Taoist Alchemy?

actually a great deal, since they at once compliment each other (there is at least one practice with which I am familiar - Zhuen Ti Practice - that combines the two) and at the same time contradict each other, which, from the perspective of Chinese history / philosophy is not insignificant - if I recall, the whole thing came up in terms of comparative assessment of one to the other, so as far as staying "on topic", it seemed to evolve naturally out of the discussion, so that's how it occured (maybe I was the one who did that - I forget and am too lazy to go back and look; BTW, I missed where you mentioned this the first time, so sorry if it seemed I was ignoring it); anyway, most threads on KFM seem to drift and meander prety regularly, most people don't seem to care, so that's just how I'm used to it going; maybe it's a bit less so over on EF? well, I'll try to be more acutely conscious about it in the future, although I can't promise I won't drift again...

It seems that most of the posters on this thread have no personal knowledge of Taoist Alchemy, no personal experience with Taoist Alchemy practices, or simply no personal interest in the subject matter, and thus have nothing to contribute to a discussion of the topic.

well, I mean, I could describe what it was like over the 100 or so days when my own Siu Jou Tin pathway "opened", or likewise what was similar / different with the Greater Circulation, but does anyone else really care? I could also describe the way our particular school (Complete Reality School, Dragon Gate Sect), does it, but I don't want to be responsbile for someone misunderstanding it and flairing up their sympathetics, spiking their BP and having one biotch of a headche for 3 days; one thing we do consider is that any sensations are merely one of 8 aberrant manifestations of "qi" (tightness, itches, ache, vibration, sound, image, smell and cold) that are part of old injuries being healed, and are not indicative of anything beyond that (personally, I see it as the ANS and the CT system rebalancing themselves); anyway, the key is to work with someone experienced (unlike Jung who supposedly used Willhelm's poorly translated work on the subject and evidently ended up needing to live alone a cottage and playing with little toy soldiers to get his brain back to normal - or so I have heard...)

as far as semen retention, in our particular practice the perspective is that once you get aroused, any semen that you would "retain" is already "tainted" by the arousal itself, so you may as well go ahead and enjoy yourself; otherwise, as far as the Medline literature goes, there does not seem to be any evidence of medical problems associated with retrograde ejaculation, although I don't know what is acutally being retained as an semen is being urinated out anyway (but you do have a shorter refractory period afterwards, for what it's worth)

The continuing discussion of Chan Buddhism on this thread has certainly been quite interesting and informative, but really deserves to have its own thread, IMO, since it is not the topic of this thread.

guess Scott took care of that, so no worries

[Doc Stier]

A common obstacle for Westerners in approaching the Nei-Tan literature and practices seems to be tied to a cultural unfamiliarity with its core philosophical and metaphysical concepts. Thus, in order to work with the notion of cultivating a Golden Elixir (Chin-Tan), it is necessary to grasp the idea of a basic Inner Elixir (Nei-Tan) which is traditionally considered common to all, emanating from the Primeval Beginnings (Hun-Cheng) and shared by everyone alike.

Liu Yiming (1734-1821) states in his writings that "Golden Elixir is another name for one's Fundamental Nature, formed out of Primeval Beginnings. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's Fundamental Nature. Every human being has this Golden Elixir complete in oneself, and it is entirely achieved in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the Seed of Immortals and Buddhas, and the root of worthies and sages". As such, this Inner Elixar represents 'Superior Virtue' (Shang-Te) manifested as the personal Self-Realization of the original "Celestial Reality" (Tien-Chen), the unconditioned, unchanging, primary components of existence and being, viz. Ching, Chi, and Shen.

The culmination of Nei-Tan training and practices, therefore, is to successfully 'Return' (Huan) to the 'Emptiness' (Kong) of the original state of Nothingness (Wu) from which Ching, Chi, and Shen originally came. This is accomplished by "refining Vital Essence (Ching) in order to transform it into Intrinsic Energy (Chi)" , then "refining Intrinsic Energy (Chi) in order to transform it into Spirit (Shen)", and finally by "refining Spirit (Shen) in order to Return (Huan) to Unconditioned Nothingness (Wu)."

In this manner, while the Tao-Te Ching states: "The Tao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, and the Three generate the Ten Thousand Myriad Things", the Nei-Tan practices employ a kind of reverse technology which retraces these stages of development back to the Primeval Beginnings of the Cosmos.

Doc

[cjurakpt]

the Nei-Tan practices employ a kind of reverse technology which retraces these stages of development back to the Primeval Beginnings of the Cosmos.

which is played out allegorically/spatialy in the taiji form as well

[Doc Stier]

Good Tai-Chi Chuan certainly holds the potential to employ the Nei-Tan process, but few modern practitioners seem to be interested in training seriously enough to do so. Too bad, really, not to go for the full meal deal, wouldn't you agree?

Doc

[qiew]

A common obstacle for Westerners in approaching the Nei-Tan literature and practices seems to be tied to a cultural unfamiliarity with its core philosophical and metaphysical concepts. Thus, in order to work with the notion of cultivating a Golden Elixir (Chin-Tan), it is necessary to grasp the idea of a basic Inner Elixir (Nei-Tan) which is traditionally considered common to all, emanating from the Primeval Beginnings (Hun-Cheng) and shared by everyone alike.

Liu Yiming (1734-1821) states in his writings that "Golden Elixir is another name for one's Fundamental Nature, formed out of Primeval Beginnings. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's Fundamental Nature. Every human being has this Golden Elixir complete in oneself, and it is entirely achieved in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the Seed of Immortals and Buddhas, and the root of worthies and sages". As such, this Inner Elixar represents 'Superior Virtue' (Shang-Te) manifested as the personal Self-Realization of the original "Celestial Reality" (Tien-Chen), the unconditioned, unchanging, primary components of existence and being, viz. Ching, Chi, and Shen.

The culmination of Nei-Tan training and practices, therefore, is to successfully 'Return' (Huan) to the 'Emptiness' (Kong) of the original state of Nothingness (Wu) from which Ching, Chi, and Shen originally came. This is accomplished by "refining Vital Essence (Ching) in order to transform it into Intrinsic Energy (Chi)" , then "refining Intrinsic Energy (Chi) in order to transform it into Spirit (Shen)", and finally by "refining Spirit (Shen) in order to Return (Huan) to Unconditioned Nothingness (Wu)."

In this manner, while the Tao-Te Ching states: "The Tao generates the One, the One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, and the Three generate the Ten Thousand Myriad Things", the Nei-Tan practices employ a kind of reverse technology which retraces these stages of development back to the Primeval Beginnings of the Cosmos.

Doc

Hi, Doc

Basically I understand the principle of your saying above and the NeiDan Tu (micro.jpg). Can you recommend me any web sites or books, Chinese or English, to further my knowledge on the Nei Dan. In fact, I am practricing now under a sifu after 8 years of cultivating micro and macro orbiting qigong. My sifu, a Chinese is not good on explaining the principles.

Thanks.

Qiew

[Doc Stier]

Hi Qiew!

Understood. Check these sites out as a starting point. Hopefully they will fill in some of the gaps in information.

Doc

http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/daoism&.../pg5-1-3-1.asp

http://www.literati-tradition.com/me..._practice.html

http://www.stanford.edu/~pregadio/jindan_texts.html

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Can you recommend me any web sites or books, Chinese or English, to further my knowledge on the Nei Dan.

If you haven't read any of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's works, you might check them out, good material on basics, processes and practice.. direct training with Dr. Yang is a real eye-opener..

Now, aside from the academic demonstrations, the admonishments of protocol, and the attachment to dogma.. i make the following statement with the understanding that i am subject to disciplinary wisdom... Tradition is the enemy of progress and the foundation of understanding.. separation and exclusion are concepts not consistent with experience of Tao..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..


If you haven't read any of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's works, you might check them out, good material on basics, processes and practice.. direct training with Dr. Yang is a real eye-opener..

Now, aside from the academic demonstrations, the admonishments of protocol, and the attachment to dogma.. i make the following statement with the understanding that i am subject to disciplinary wisdom... Tradition is the enemy of progress and the foundation of understanding.. separation and exclusion are concepts not consistent with experience of Tao..

Be well..

Hi Bob,

Tradition, separation and exclusion are just as much facets of Tao as any other experience, principle or phenomena and, as such, each has value or not according to the context.

It is not whether we participate in any of these that creates the error. It is the clinging to any of these that creates error.

Clinging leads to stagnation and stagnation limits growth which, according to a specific perspective, may be viewed as a detriment. But even detriments have something to teach us if we are willing to pay attention to the lesson. This allows the detriment to become a benefit which makes the whole process merely another avenue of bringing ourselves into accord with Tao.

It is important to remember that judgments that create labels are just as contrived as anything else in life. Judgment/discernment applies only to the contrived context of he who judges/discerns. Re-define the context and the conclusion may be viewed in a new light.

It is all Tao! The quality of the experience changes according to the context and we determine the context each for ourselves. Since we determine the context we are each responsible for the consequences of our determinations/experiences.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: Of course it's ALL Tao.. it cannot be otherwise.. my reference is to the "generally expressed desire" toward unifying our experiences in a manner consistent with a harmonious existence.. but, your critique is a consistent expression of Tao, and appreciated for its consistency..

Be well..