i hope kung fu doesnt go in this direction

[lkfmdc]

We need to embrace MMA.

Unfortunately Gene, out of your whole post, that was the only statement I actually agreed with...

Has TCMA always been associated with perfromance? YES, of course it has. It has also always been associated with cheap magic tricks, deception, fraud and cons. IE just because something is part of the tradition doesn't mean we should automatically embrace it as positive

Speaking as a disciple of someone who DID make a living performing on the street (ie CTS), I can tell you pretty much all the things they did were "tricks" (ie no functional martial application) and they lived off the ignorance of their audience , who despite being CHinese knew as much about TCMA as the average American does today

It's like catch wrestling, which has a legit, real, applicable side, it also has it's association with pro wrestling, gimmicks, fake matches and fake techiques. To keep the real art alive, they have to DISassociate

[Pork Chop]

Has TCMA always been associated with perfromance? YES, of course it has. It has also always been associated with cheap magic tricks, deception, fraud and cons. IE just because something is part of the tradition doesn't mean we should automatically embrace it as positive
...

nice post.

[Lucas]

IMO complaining about XMA or modern wushu guys not being traditional and doing fighting app training is the same thing as complaining that pro NFL players arent actually locked in melee warfare with swords, axes, and the like.

NFL is a simulation of a warfield, played by athletes who are pretending to be on a battlefield in a high stress, extreme athletic invironment.

same as wushu guys. its all fake, but at the same time requires specific skill sets that take many, MANY years to aquire and master.

you dont have to like football, i dont, but im not going to diss them for what they do.

[Shaolinlueb]

american football is for pussies you should play rugby instead.

someone posted earlier these guys move with more speed, agility, and power then most traditional KF guys. which i totally agree with. too many people cling onto kung fu and its mystical powers. there is nothing mystical about it, its all training. kung fu has a lot of performance in it.
i guess i found it funny that he stopped to adjust his uniform and walk over to the corner to do a flip. doesnt make much sense and the form didnt flow well in my opinion.

plus lucas, how many traditional guys do you know can use applications in a fight? most of them freeze and try to think of soemthing or it doesnt work. everyone seems to rely on the kick boxing mma stuff. which isnt bad, it works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most baton majorettes (or whatever you call them) can put on a far greater show than any TMA that is skilled, combat-wise, with sticks or a bo/jo.

MA is one thing, performance arts are another, last time I checked the "wu" in wu shu didn't mean performance.

[Shaolinlueb]

Most baton majorettes (or whatever you call them) can put on a far greater show than any TMA that is skilled, combat-wise, with sticks or a bo/jo.

MA is one thing, performance arts are another, last time I checked the "wu" in wu shu didn't mean performance.

god i ant to reply with soemthing whitty and annoying right now but i cant think of anything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

god i ant to reply with soemthing whitty and annoying right now but i cant think of anything.

maybe something like, "a baton isn't the only thing a majorette can handle"...

[Shaolinlueb]

maybe something like, "a baton isn't the only thing a majorette can handle"...

a staff isnt the only thing a shaolin monk can handle!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

a staff isnt the only thing a shaolin monk can handle!!!

ZING ! with a rimshot !

[Pork Chop]

someone posted earlier these guys move with more speed, agility, and power then most traditional KF guys. ..

agree with everything except the power.
I don't think i'd consider anything they do powerful except for the jumping.

[firepalm]

Looks like traditional is already going this direction....

Wah Lum, sure don't look traditional to me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtTjzkKCYVY

Jimmy Wong's Chin Woo kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJSENl05-j8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxRcnQpXVYg

Personally I see nothing wrong with it, however as long as people aren't sold on this making them better fighters.

Kung-Fu's problem is not how will it blend with the XMA world. Kung-Fu's problem is how will it blend with the MMA world.

Personally I would say it's more a case of how Kung Fu will keep itself relevant in today's world & not necessarily attempting to fit a mold determined by other martial arts.

Others may not concur but I think one of the greatest things about Chinese Martial Arts is the diversity & that's where things like the Wushu & such remain relevant.

My two bits...

[GeneChing]

...the bottom line is not everyone is a fighter, at least not in the narrow definition you put forth. Sure, there's charlatanism in our tradition. There's charlatanism in both of our lineages. Your indignity at something your own master did is notable. That's really not the point (or perhaps a separate point). There's a lot of people who bandy about the notion of 'real' martial arts as just being fighting, just being what's going on in MMA. There are many people on this forum that state that they are only fighters. That's fine. But don't discourage others from their personal practices. When I used to teach, I taught children, elderly and physically-challenged students. I taught cancer patients and at least one AIDS patient. Did I teach them to street fight? Not really. I just gave them exercise, which is all they really needed. If we limit our definition of martial arts to hardcore fighters alone, we'd probably eject 90% of the practitioners in America, maybe more. As it stands, the martial arts economy is so weak that it can barely afford to support what few resources we have. Plain and simple, we need more practitioners. We can't always have the very best fighters. We'll take the beginners, the mediocre, the novices. Everyone has to start somewhere. To raise the apex of our pyramid, we need a bigger base. The people that are always putting down other arts, those are who would kill our tradition. It's some sort of weird self loathing. To survive, it's all about diversity.

But from my perspective, I have no fear of tradition dying off. TCMA is as strong as ever. You just got to know where to look.

[lkfmdc]

...the bottom line is not everyone is a fighter,

I have well over 200 students right now (closer to 300). About 12 of them actually "fight". So do the math

But all of them at least do martial arts and not cirucs stunts or gymnasitcs under the guise of martial arts

at least not in the narrow definition you put forth.

MY definition isn't the least narrow, it's just precise. There's nothing wrong with raquet ball, but it isn't martial arts. Whatever those people are doing, it isn't martial arts. To try and portray it as such is dishonest

sort of like dressing up wushu palyers in robes and calling them shaolin monks

But don't discourage others from their personal practices.

So, if someone wants to do "chi healng" and is passing themselves off as a real medical professional, we shouldn't discourage their "personal practices"?

If you want to teach gymnastics with some kicks and screams thrown in, call it gymnastics, don't call it "martial arts" because it has NONE of the qualities of martial arts

At least new age Tai Chi presents itself as a health practice and not a fighting art.

If we limit our definition of martial arts to hardcore fighters alone, we'd probably eject 90% of the practitioners in America, maybe more.

straw man, meet Gene. Gene, meet straw man. We aren't limiting the practice of martial arts to an elite 10%, we're just expecting so called "martial arts teachers" to, GASP!, actually teach martial arts

As it stands, the martial arts economy is so weak that it can barely afford to support what few resources we have.

preposterous (spelling?)! Economically combat sports are raking in the cash, and many martial arts schools are doing really well. My school made $10,000 in 10 days in September.... but that's just off an elite 10% who wants to fight professional MMA (insert sarcasm here)

But from my perspective, I have no fear of tradition dying off. TCMA is as strong as ever. You just got to know where to look.

What do we expect the editor of a CMA based magazine to say on a public forum

Oh well, time to post "shaolin taco" (tm) pics on my space, see you later

[GeneChing]

Actually, circus skills have a longstanding relationship with martial arts too.

But I hear you. We all hear you. Lord knows, you've said it over and over. You don't like anything but fighters. That's cool. The trickers are defining themselves as martial artists and the general public is defining them as martial artists. Perhaps you should rethink that precision. I don't think the trickers are being dishonest. They may have a different world view than you, but so do a lot of people. Dishonesty is the real straw man here. Or perhaps it's just a matter of perspective. In terms of passing someone off as a 'true master', the real issue is how that is defined. You had the advantage of training under a remarkable master. Not everyone had that opportunity. It raised your standards of a true master to a level that many can't achieve. I have no issue with that at all. What I do have issue with is you berated others for not having that opportunity. It's like saying "I trained under Agassi. That's real tennis. The rest of you are fake because you're not at my level" (I would have made this a racquetball analogy, but I don't know any famous racquetball players). Anyway, a lot of people just like to play tennis. They may practice at some small court somewhere, taking lessons from a nameless pro. It's grassroots. It may be mediocre, but it's still a practice. The same goes for martial arts. So someone is a tricker. There's more skill there than in most people's practice. And no tricker stays a tricker for too long. They eventually quit or make the shift into coaching.

MMA makes money for MMA alone. It makes money for the promoters and a few of the top fighters. But it doesn't generate money for the overall economy of martial arts. I'm glad your school is doing well. But I'd venture to say (and you might even agree) that your school is exceptional.

Do you really think all TCMA is dead? I doubt that. If you did, you'd have failed to have honored your master, and you seem like one of the last people to do that. Anyone who thinks that TCMA is dying need only say "TCMA lives on through me". Then there's no one to blame.

Ahh, it's good to have a little debate with you, lkfmdc. I've always appreciated your sense of humor.

[lkfmdc]

But I hear you. We all hear you. Lord knows, you've said it over and over. You don't like anything but fighters.

Then you haven't really been listening. I have plenty of normal people, even grandmothers in class....

You had the advantage of training under a remarkable master. Not everyone had that opportunity. It raised your standards of a true master to a level that many can't achieve.

I don't hold anyone to my teacher's standards, and in fact, if you every read anything about him, I'm more than a little critical about a lot of aspects of him. In fact, I hold him up as an example of the "mixed bag" of CMA

Anyway, a lot of people just like to play tennis. They may practice at some small court somewhere, taking lessons from a nameless pro. It's grassroots. It may be mediocre, but it's still a practice.

Ah, but that is exactly the point. Tennis at any level is fine, but if I show up with a baseball bat and a football and have you wear a ballet too-too and call it tennis?

Do you really think all TCMA is dead? I doubt that.

I believe that increasingly what is being practiced in the name of CMA has lost connection with what it was originally, and not that evolution is bad, lords knows I am all for evolution, but I think it's ceased to be CMA, it's more C-LARP

Ahh, it's good to have a little debate with you, lkfmdc. I've always appreciated your sense of humor.

well, have to wait until I get on the other computer to do photoshop but I'll be sure to cook something up