Real Gung Fu vs. "the shoot"

[Satori Science]

This vid is awsome, from Black Taoist a Yin style bagua Sifu in NYC with Sharif Bey of the Hung Gar style and Sifu Ben Hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2RvflWcEqQ

[street_fighter]

ah. its back up. http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=47922

[nospam]

Well, goes to show we all have our ways to stop them nasty shooters. Personally I am biting, yanking, tearing and twisting my way all the way down. with the odd flaming chi ball for good measure!



nospam

[Fire Dragon]

In Taiji the "solution" to the sprawl is the movement An. Neutralize the shoot with the waist and then press down.

As was pointed out in the other thread on this issue the incoming force has to be dealt with first.

FD

[Pork Chop]

i'm sorry but that's the 3rd bad "defend the shoot" video i've seen from bt and the boys.
The rest of their videos are some of the best out there for decent apps; but they really need to get someone knowing what their doing on the shoot.

The multitude of problems with that fake shot are what'd keep it from working anywhere, let alone against "capable kung fu guys". I know you're not necessarily condoning these vids, but I figure I'll list out the problems anyway.

First - the shot's from a mile out. of course it's going to be defended. like ninja's shot on Robbie Lawler- it just ain't gonna work on someone with eyes.

Second - absolutely no set up... nothing to get the hands up, nothing to distract & bring the attention up... nothing

Third - no level drop. Like David said on the other thread: good grapplers come up underneath you. He's not going to be bent at the waist, with his center of gravity all the way back; his center of gravity's going to be pinned right up against that leg & able to lift dude's bodyweight much easier.

Fourth - no penetration step. A good shot won't just go to your leg- it'll be aimed a few feet past you. Kinda in line with dropping level, but worth its own bullet.

Fifth - no chain... usually if the shot doesn't get good enough position for the lift, they'll readjust the angle and collapse the leg- this is why you don't want to let them touch your front leg while it's bent.

I ain't even a good wrestler; but these 5 things being absent make the whole thing unrealistic to me.

I know BT's got on his fav' videos some iranian judo/grappling guy who does the pa bu style shot defense.

Maybe an actual wrestler or judoka could chime in on how it can be pulled off, i just don't see it. If the shooter's got his feet under him, hoisting someone's full bodyweight shouldn't be a huge deal.

What's so wrong with using a sprawl? I don't get it.

[Shaolinlueb]

i'm sorry but that's the 3rd bad "defend the shoot" video i've seen from bt and the boys.
The rest of their videos are some of the best out there for decent apps; but they really need to get someone knowing what their doing on the shoot.

The multitude of problems with that fake shot are what'd keep it from working anywhere, let alone against "capable kung fu guys". I know you're not necessarily condoning these vids, but I figure I'll list out the problems anyway.

First - the shot's from a mile out. of course it's going to be defended. like ninja's shot on Robbie Lawler- it just ain't gonna work on someone with eyes.

Second - absolutely no set up... nothing to get the hands up, nothing to distract & bring the attention up... nothing

Third - no level drop. Like David said on the other thread: good grapplers come up underneath you. He's not going to be bent at the waist, with his center of gravity all the way back; his center of gravity's going to be pinned right up against that leg & able to lift dude's bodyweight much easier.

Fourth - no penetration step. A good shot won't just go to your leg- it'll be aimed a few feet past you. Kinda in line with dropping level, but worth its own bullet.

Fifth - no chain... usually if the shot doesn't get good enough position for the lift, they'll readjust the angle and collapse the leg- this is why you don't want to let them touch your front leg while it's bent.

I ain't even a good wrestler; but these 5 things being absent make the whole thing unrealistic to me.

I know BT's got on his fav' videos some iranian judo/grappling guy who does the pa bu style shot defense.

Maybe an actual wrestler or judoka could chime in on how it can be pulled off, i just don't see it. If the shooter's got his feet under him, hoisting someone's full bodyweight shouldn't be a huge deal.

What's so wrong with using a sprawl? I don't get it.

wow dude thats the most i think you ever typed.

[Anthony_ATT]

Pork Chop called it correctly.

It's not called a shoot.

It's called a shot.

As for the techniques, try them on real wrestlers.

[monji112000]

This vid is awsome, from Black Taoist a Yin style bagua Sifu in NYC with Sharif Bey of the Hung Gar style and Sifu Ben Hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2RvflWcEqQ

heres are real question whats wrong with a sprawl? Is it becouse its not a "cma" technique? If the answer is yes.. thats 1) racist 2) stupid If you can pickup a basic technique that works I don't care if its KARATE.

and just to drive the point in the normal sprawl uses the same principles found in some CMA, its just using them differently.

by the way the guy would have been slammed...

dealing with the single or double and dealing with a bear hug or a hip type shoot can be different. Its all about height, speed, timing, distance ect.. JO smo at the bar and MR. SUB fighter are not going to come at you the same way.

anyway BT is a joke... honestly stop watching all the old Kung Fu movies! Wu-tan vrs Shoalin isn't real.

[PM]

Pork Chop: practicing TCMA (Hung Kyun) and having many MMA friends i occasionaly train with, all i can say: bravo, excellent post!

[Ben Gash]

OK, the takedown is wrong on many levels, if he'd just watched a couple of MMA instructionals he'd be able to tell that. He's then exposed for a ****zer. His weight ISN'T on top of his attacker sufficiently to stop him from driving through with a double leg, and again he shows that he doesn't really understand sprawling.
There is NO WAY that he can successfully execute an arm in guillotine like that on a live opponent.
If you don't like sprawling or want something that's more "Kung Fu" then post or use an over/under hook defence

[Fire Dragon]

The problem with the sprawl for kung fu is that it puts you in a position where you cannot transition into your other kung fu techniques. BT is correct in that "the root" or connection to the ground is very important in kung fu. How are you rooted in a sprawl? You're not, you're resting your weight on your opponent to drive them into the ground.

I find it hard to believe that kung fu has no indigenous defense against the shoot. There weren't any wrestlers in china when kung fu was being shaped? Furthermore, tackling someone at the waist is a natural, instinctual move that non-martial artists use. So kung fu masters of old never encountered it? Hard to believe.

FD

[sanjuro_ronin]

I incorporated the sprawl with no problem whatsoever, its one of the easiest defenses for a take down.
Rooting is fine, but there is static rooting and dynamic rooting.

[Ben Gash]

a true sprawl should drive your hips into your opponent, just dropping your chest down onto them is sloppy and easier to counter. With your hips engaged it's fairly easy to transition to Sieh Ma or Lok Gwei Ma (a lot of Japanese based fighters are very good at this).

[jow yeroc]

For the most part i think Sharif sifu and BT showed viable technique. Yes it
would be ideal to show it real time against a wrestler or whatever but to say
the technique won't work for anyone is not necessarily true. Fight the fighter
not the style. If someone diligently practiced a technique it could work for
that person i believe. Sure it may not work for everyone who tried it against
everytime someone shot but IMO i think the techniques for the most part
could work. i do think someone like Sharif could pull off the tech's he was
demonstrating.
I do tho agree that the shot was lackluster and ineffective and the guy
prolly had no grapple skill, but it seemed like a pretty casual and off the cuff
demonstration.
And of course "just sprawl" works but why not have other weapons in the
arsenal IF you can make them work? Just my humble opinion.

[MasterKiller]

The problem with the sprawl for kung fu is that it puts you in a position where you cannot transition into your other kung fu techniques. BT is correct in that "the root" or connection to the ground is very important in kung fu. How are you rooted in a sprawl? You're not, you're resting your weight on your opponent to drive them into the ground.

I find it hard to believe that kung fu has no indigenous defense against the shoot. There weren't any wrestlers in china when kung fu was being shaped? Furthermore, tackling someone at the waist is a natural, instinctual move that non-martial artists use. So kung fu masters of old never encountered it? Hard to believe.

FD

A shot is not a waist tackle. It's a level change aimed at controlling the legs and hips. Proper stucture (keeping the back straight, not bent like in this video) is a key point as wrestlers do not tackle you, they use the penetrating step to off-balance you and then pick you up for a slam, most of the time.

CMA doesn't have this particular technique because it involves dropping your knee to the ground and breaking your root.