J.K.D. is dead

[curtis]

I have been reading this forum a lot.most of you people ,Just dont get it.

J.K.D. is dead!
The art died with Bruce Lee. His concepts and principles survive of course,
but most people do not know how to use them. (You say "BUT" he taught many
people his art, before he died.) The people who know J. K. D cannot or will
not teach it, for it is personal to them. Let me put it this way. In order
to make a technique work, you need (let us say) four elements: A, B, C and
D. Any problems yet? But because of your nature, background, and or
individual liking you do A&B naturally. Bruce would teach you're missing C
& D. (And BOOM, you can do it!) The only problem is, you cannot teach it,
since you are not aware of all the parts (A&B is part of you! But C&D is
what was taught) And You can only show others what you know. Some people
can learn, but most cannot. You must have a solid background, In order to
build a good base to build from. Without that base there will always be
gaps in your learning (no matter how hard you try.)
All too many people can read and recite principles that Bruce Lee taught,
but all too many do not know what they mean. What they think they know,
they don't. and they don't known that THEY DONT KNOW.
Let me restate that. The proof is in the pudding. Can you make it work, As
naturally or as efficiently, has Bruce Lee did? If not, you do not know the
technique.
BUT there is hope!
For those who want to learn Bruce's art. There are a number of original
students left, who can teach what they know. Jesse Glover (Bruce's first
student) and James DeMile are two people that come to mind. (There are a
few others.) They do not teach Jeet Kune Do but do teach what Bruce did
(Bruce's fighting art). I suggest if you want to learn, do your homework.
There are many good teachers in many good arts to learn from; but there are
very few people to teach you what Bruce Lee did. There is nothing wrong
with doing your own thing. But there is something wrong with someone who
teaches you incorrectly, be careful my friends, don't be taken by a fraud.
Find out more about J. K. D. before you start.
Sincerely yours, C.A.G.

[Good, better, Me]

Maybe you just don't get it that Jeet kune do is not a system/style. Jeet Kune Do is actually your own style, I'll give you an example.
When someone attacks you on the street, and you haven't practised any martia art, What is you reaction? You propably start to defend yourself, and try your best to survive. Now, the WAY you defend yourself, the thing that comes out naturally, can be called Jeet Kune Do. One can train his jeet kune do in various systems, like myself. I train taijutsu for grappling,weapons, and punching skill and I train taekwondo for footwork and kicking skill. When somebody challenges me on the streets, I don't pick for example taijutsu to defend myself. I use my tools (arms,legs,etc.) the best way I can, without thinking about the style so much. I defend myself naturally, and if I kick then it's propably going to be a TKD kick and if I punch it's going to be a taijutsu punch. BUT the point is, I don't have a "style" when I fight, but if someone wants to give a name to that style it's going to be jeet kune do. Understand?

"The students will eventually become like the teacher, so pick a good teacher :)"

[curtis]

I respect your opinion, if you to choose to believe that Jeet Kune Do is just a bunch of concepts, then you are welcome to continue be leaving that.
Although why called Jeet Kune Do ? Sense the concepts that makes up Jeet Kune Do, were taken from many other martial art's and Chinese writings. (The art of war, by SunTza, the Toa Te Ching,by Loa Tza and even the book of the five rings, which was written by Japanese samurai, to name just a few.)

Doing your own thing, may feel good, but it is extremely dangerous for the novice.

Freedom of expression is great, if you have a proper base to build from.
Unfortunately you cannot Mix some martial art's primal concepts. For an example, wing chun and TKD. The base or root of each system are so different that they cannot be mixed. (How can you maintain the centerline principal and do most of TKD kicks, you cannot mix boxing and jujitsu it just does not work.)
(okay I know you will disagree.) think of it like this, if you mix oil and water together ,it will make a very tasty salad dressing but they will eventually separate, if you try to Mix dissimilar martial art's together you will never have a strong foundation, and like water and oil eventually you'll have nothing, except two incomplete ingredients, that are no good for anything.
If you choose to follow Bruce Lee, why not look beyond the surface? Build a proper foundation. And then you can build your own style, or adapt from others, whatever you choose is up to you.
Anything worth having, is worth working for. Make something, and make it with quality, then and only then we'll have something of true value.
C.A.G.

[Good, better, Me]

You're right about the fact that I will never be able to mix martial arts when I reach a higher level. But still, I will not limit myself to one style. I try to examine all martial arts and not just taekwondo and taijutsu. Bruce Lee trained to be a fighter, to be a good street fighter. I don't want to be like that, but the real reason why I cross train is the fact that I want to make progress. Why? Well because I'm too old to become a good martial artist, unless I work real hard to become one. BTW, the grandmaster of Taijutsu once wrote that the world is full of madmen, and I belong in one of those madmen gategories. "Always seeking knowledge, and never satisfied in one style" :)

"The students will eventually become like the teacher, so pick a good teacher :)"

[nobody]

unless you are 40 or something, you can be a good martial artist at any age. i just started this summer, granted im also 17, but even at 40, you can get real good.

[apoweyn]

Curtis,

You don't think it's a bit presumptuous to come along and tell everyone that they just don't get it?

If JKD is so difficult to understand, how is it that you understand it well enough to judge that everyone else does not?

You can't reconcile the principles of wing chun and taekwondo? Bollocks. Of course you can. Will the result resemble wing chun or taekwondo? To a degree, yes. Closely? No.

To believe otherwise is an act of intellectual laziness. As is discounting people's understanding of JKD by saying that Bruce Lee is dead therefore JKD is dead.


Stuart B.

[taba]

hmm. paul vunak's 'jkd: concepts and philosophies' refers to the belief that jkd died with lee as a present day misconception.

would have thought that with your 17 years of training would have recognized.

[curtis]

HI
Ap Oweyn, and Taba.
Ap (Bullock I have not heared that one, sense I was last in England.) This is going to be fun!!!
JKD was Bruce Lees dream, it was a bunch of notes and ideas. Bruce had not yet finalized his concepts before he died. Ask sifu Dan. I do recall him stating, that Bruce Lee asked many students that knew Jeet Kune Do not to teacher it. Bruce could find the personalized excellence in each of his students, he gave them what they needed to make Jeet Kune Do work. But he was not finish with his dream, he needed more time to consolidate his thoughts and concepts. When Bruce Lee died, Linda Lee had a writer go through Bruces notes and consolidate them into a book. Bruce Lee did not write the toa of Jeet Kune Do.!
And many original students of Bruce Lee are very disappointed on the way that Jeet Kune Do has gone. (Why do you think sifu Dan has left Jeet Kune Do?) Or a better example is, ask yourself, if Jeet Kune Do is so great, why after 30 years hasn't more great martial artists come from Jeet Kune Do?
My guess is those in charge can't teach. (And some would say they can't do it either! )

I stand by my statements , please read the definitions again and reasoning for. if theres any questions , than we can debate, and untell then we have a difference of opinion.

I was told by my sifu, that when Bruce started to teach his students, he left out small details that made the techniques work. And when he was asked why he had changed what he was doing. His answer was, WHY should I teach someone to beat me.

Now to Tabas question
in my 17 years of training I realize that the concepts of Jeet Kune Do/the way of the intersepting fist/personalized excellence. Is awesome. The problem is the base (or foundation.) You CANNOT build on sand. And without the proper foundation, nothing will last. That is why I follow Bruce's fighting style. Once you understand and can do the basics. Then and only then, can the
experimentation and building of your own individual style be done. I do not to Jeet Kune Do, although my roots are deeply intertwined with Bruce Lees fighting art.
NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"BULLOCKS" that is a good one! (In England that statement is worse than the F word, and should not to be said around ladies)
thank you for your opinions. And I look forward to corresponding with you again.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[taba]

curtis,

check out the ‘what makes jkd, jkd?’ thread. are you questioning the concept or style?

think is a consensus as to what concept jkd is. by def’n.

and, ah, most concepts outlive their authors. few are ‘completed’ before death…

if questioning style - not sure what point is: any technical shortcomings (intentionally hidden) at time of death would, because of concept, be found out and corrected.

(do understand that exists a ‘traditional’ school of jkd that seems to wish to preserve style jkd from change. do not know enough about to understand why.)

[Mokujin]

Which isn't much, but after reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do and other of Bruce's work, I always considered JKD more a philosophy with sound principles than a style.

"Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless..."

This philosophy of self-improvement and not limiting yourself cannot die simply because Bruce Lee did.

As far a Bruce Lee not showing certain techniques, I find that arguement weak.

He made life long friends. Do you really think he was thinking, "Dang, I can't show D.Inosanto that technique because he could use it to beat me!"? Isn't this exactly against his philosophy of adaptation?

If somebody did beat him, wouldn't Bruce find a way to better himself so it didn't happen again? By taking the approach that he was hiding something or holding back is using a limitation.

"It's just a name. Don't fuss over it."

Peace :D

[This message was edited by Mokujin on 09-24-01 at 09:20 PM.]

[curtis]

Good morning gentleman
okay I have ruffled a a few feathers.
The art the style and concepts as far as I am concerned are the same thing. Want is important and want isnt? Bruce used three concepts to evaluate all technique.
Simplicity/ efficiency/practicality (there should be no argument their.) He was a very small man (to American standards) 135 to 139lbs, but he could man handle men more than a hundred lbs heavier ,and stronger than him self.
You should ask yourself, can I make this technique work. (Or can a small woman make this technique work?) Do I have to try? Am I making the technique work, or is technique itself nationally strong? (You do not have to TRY!)
One secret in the art. Is traping. (My definition) with an offensive threat to take your opponent off guard. (To take them off his base) so that he cannot hit me, meanwhile I can strike him. For a moment. The taking of base, can be physical or mental. The point is can I hit him? while he cannot hurt me.
I am sorry gentleman is 515 a.m. I have to go to work.
Have a good day. C.A.G.

[shaolinboxer]

Statements like this are what is killing it.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Spectre]

So if JKD is a philosophy, are you telling me that I can go to ANY JKD school and use any style of my choosing as long as they teach me the philosophy?

And if JKD is a style, and that style can be whatever the instructor wants it to be (Karate, BJJ, Judo, Wing Chun, etc.), why isn't it called a school of Karate, etc.? Is it to capitalize on the name JKD and Bruce Lee's name?

If JKD is what anyone wants it to be while following basic principles, why call it JKD? Just call it Miyagi Do!

Just some things to think about!!


Continued blessings in your life and your training.

The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.

[apoweyn]

curtis,

here's the thing: i can't argue with you. why? because JKD is too nebulous. it was designed to be nebulous. all this "be like water", "absorb what is useful", "... more important than any established style or system", and so on describe a very flexible view.

so is dan inosanto right about JKD? yeah, he is. (and if i'm not mistaken, he distanced himself from the organization, not the style. he still uses the name JKD to describe that portion of his curriculum.) is ted wong right? presumably, yeah. how can they both be right? because bruce lee was deliberately vague. JKD was in evolution. he didn't want it to be a set thing. right? so it's been different things to different people at different times.

lee did certify dan inosanto to teach JKD. why would he do that if he wanted it to die with him? presumably, he didn't. nor did he want everyone who trained in JKD to look like him. he wanted it to change to meet the needs of an individual, but not so much so that it violated its own principles (simplicity, economy of motion, utility, etc.).

if JKD was meant to die, lee shouldn't have taught it or named it. but he did. and if he presented certain lessons to other people, using the name JKD to identify those lessons, then they turned around and shared those lessons, then JKD is not dead. different? perhaps. worse? i leave that judgment to other people. dead? nope.

wingchundo is the style of james demile, yeah? will it die when he's (heaven forbid) gone? because nobody will do it quite the way he does. but that's the case with anything ever taught. so when does an art die? whenever the first artist passes on? I don't believe that.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Spectre,

Precisely. That's probably the sort of argument that Bruce Lee had in mind when he said "it's just a name." The name isn't the point. The idea is the point. If a taekwondoka decided to bag the jumping kicks, use low-line kicks, develop his punching, etc., would he still be a taekwondoka? or would he have to rename what he did? Or adopt the name JKD?

Ultimately, who cares? The name isn't the point. Which, to my mind at least, means that JKD can't be dead. If there are people that get the idea, it's not dead, regardless of what you call it.


Stuart B.