Is WC Shaolin ?

[woodendumby]

this may seem like a simple Q to answer....but after my own looking around, it's still not clear.

[VingDragon]

where did you look for it?

[woodendumby]

well...,it seems no matter where i look there is only speculation. It's hard to believe that , being only a few hundred years old that nobody knows where it originated from. If thats the case why do we even call it chinese ? perhaps a traveler introduced it. The answers I get when I look around is " perhaps a shaolin monk and budhist nun created it....perhaps its an offshoot of hung gar...or another form of kung fu.

and then I have a book called "Mastering Kung Fu Featuring Shaolin Wing Chun".... So I'm just curious as to other ppls opinions...or perhaps they can point me to a more definitive answer.

[couch]

well...,it seems no matter where i look there is only speculation. It's hard to believe that , being only a few hundred years old that nobody knows where it originated from. If thats the case why do we even call it chinese ? perhaps a traveler introduced it. The answers I get when I look around is " perhaps a shaolin monk and budhist nun created it....perhaps its an offshoot of hung gar...or another form of kung fu.

and then I have a book called "Mastering Kung Fu Featuring Shaolin Wing Chun".... So I'm just curious as to other ppls opinions...or perhaps they can point me to a more definitive answer.

Oh, boy. I don't know if I should let Mr. Rozanski toy with you too much.

First thing to do in Wing Chun is to learn all the spellings and search out their origins and who developed them, etc.

Let's start with......um.... Weng Chun. Okay?

Then Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Yong Chun, Wing Tsun(WT), Traditional Wing Chun(TWC), etc.

Happy hunting,
Kenton Sefcik

PS, don't forget Wing Tjun!

[Savi]

Hello Woodendumby,

What do you know to be Shaolin? You mentioned that you have the MKF book, which may help or it may not. Also keep in mind that there are many many branches of Wing Chun out there in the world; some with differing histories.

For HFY Wing Chun, as you have some information on this branch from the book, credits the Southern Shaolin Temple as the source of its system information, and GM Hung Gun Biu in specific as one of its prime ancestors who's contributed many of his training methodologies [from his martial arts and military background] which is still used today in this particular lineage.

But again I must stress to you that there are many different histories of Wing Chun kung fu. Most legends surrounding its origins point to the Southern Shaolin Temple, and some don't.

Good luck with your search.

[Hendrik]

http://www.cctv.com/program/zbzg/20070822/101651.shtml


Enjoy but dont cry when you find out about southern shao lin reality.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Actually, I think wing chun is Italian.

Originally form Milan.

It was exported to China by Marco Polo.

[sunfist]

Is shaolin really shaolin these days?

Trying to pack everything into neat little boxes usually doesnt work out. Shaolin/Sil Lum are broad terms we use to describe groups of arts. WC bears a peripheral resemblance to some of that group, and indeed historically might be related, but today when we say shaolin we tend to mean something else.

[monji112000]

this may seem like a simple Q to answer....but after my own looking around, it's still not clear.

simple answer ... don't believe in children's stories. probably not.. but then again allot of Kung fu probably isn't.

[anerlich]

Is WC Shaolin?

Not any more, if it ever was.

[Mr Punch]

...or perhaps they can point me to a more definitive answer.

It's history, and not carefully recorded at that. There is no more definitive answer.

It may have been related to some form of shaolin.

There are many theories. It's interesting but kind of pointless in the end. If it were part of your personal heritage I could understand it, but your personal roots come from your sifu and sigung and really, anything beyond that is hearsay and secondary/tertiary evidence.

[forever young]

Actually, I think wing chun is Italian.

Originally form Milan.

It was exported to China by Marco Polo.

wrong !!!
it was created by bob

[chusauli]

Although some families of WCK believe their system has its roots in Shaolin, there is no real proof of WCK beyond the Opera Boat people, so it is in general, speculation.

The early origins of WCK are often convoluted by both martial artists and secret society who tell a variation tale of the "Xi Lu" myths. The allegedly venerable 5 who escaped the "burning of the Shaolin" ordered by Kang Xi, led by renegade monk, Ma Ning Yee, and swear vengeance are good tales for common folk who have no studies in Chinese history.

There are many holes in the story:
1) Monks don't swear vengeance
2) Who are the Xi Lu?
3) Why would Emperor Kang Xi burn a temple when his father became a monk?
4) Which royal decree made it so that the Southern temple would be burned? There would be records of it in the Imperial court that exist until today...
5) How come the names of these 5 ancestors vary with whom is telling the story?
6) Would a renegade monk Ma Ning Yee really lead the royal army to destroy a Shaolin?

The more details that are added to such stories lead to more questions. I dismiss these stories as folklore and legends.

As for real history, we at least know that WCK is not Shaolin. It never came from Shaolin, Northern or Southern, but certainly has elements of different martial systems. We can only really trace WCK to the Opera Boat people who were disbanded due to an uprising of Lee Man Mao and the Hong Gan society.

There's a lot more, but stories abound and each system wants to preserve their lore as truth. I think we can listen to these stories and check with historical facts and see for ourselves.

Of course, you have to look at why people are insistent that their lore is considered "history".

[Savi]

Although some families of WCK believe their system has its roots in Shaolin, there is no real proof of WCK beyond the Opera Boat people, so it is in general, speculation.

Really, so how do you explain how Wing Chun ended up with the Butterfly swords and the Wooden Dummy? Those are in fact Shaolin-based tools. How did those things end up in Wing Chun, based on your research?

The early origins of WCK are often convoluted by both martial artists and secret society who tell a variation tale of the "Xi Lu" myths. The allegedly venerable 5 who escaped the "burning of the Shaolin" ordered by Kang Xi, led by renegade monk, Ma Ning Yee, and swear vengeance are good tales for common folk who have no studies in Chinese history.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don't mistake your opinion for fact. There are always two sides to a coin. How much do you really know about the secret societies??? Perhaps your view is also convoluted as you propose others to be.

There are many holes in the story:
1) Monks don't swear vengeance
2) Who are the Xi Lu?
3) Why would Emperor Kang Xi burn a temple when his father became a monk?
4) Which royal decree made it so that the Southern temple would be burned? There would be records of it in the Imperial court that exist until today...
5) How come the names of these 5 ancestors vary with whom is telling the story?
6) Would a renegade monk Ma Ning Yee really lead the royal army to destroy a Shaolin?

The more details that are added to such stories lead to more questions. I dismiss these stories as folklore and legends.

Indeed stories and legends are created as a smokescreen for civilians. It would take a real insider with actual connections to find the way through it. What do you know about monks? What do you know about their lifestyle? How educated are you in this field? Based on what you have been presenting on the internet so far, your "research" is very biased.

As for real history, we at least know that WCK is not Shaolin. It never came from Shaolin, Northern or Southern, but certainly has elements of different martial systems. We can only really trace WCK to the Opera Boat people who were disbanded due to an uprising of Lee Man Mao and the Hong Gan society.

You NEED to specify which branches of Wing Chun you have professed to become an expert on regarding their histories. How much actual research have you accomplished as a historian with the Pao Fa Lin Wing Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun lineages to come to your conclusions? Or are you once again dismissing these two systems as 'modern-day marketing devices'?

Legend or fact, regardless - there has existed in public circulation hints of two figures known as Dai Dung Fong of Pao Fa Lin Wing Chun and Hung Gun Biu of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. The existence of these two systems alive today that have no relation to the Red Boat Operas sticks out like a sore thumb in your blanket statements about origin theories.

And what about Chi Sim Weng Chun, which also has the Butterfly Swords and several versions of the Wooden Dummy? Or do you now discount that as not falling under the Wing Chun umbrella?

There is are two entire systems not from the Red Boats in tact today, perhaps you've heard of them? Or are you now calling HFYWC and CSWC a bunch of convoluted liars? Are you now calling the leaders of other Wing Chun lineages who say their kung fu originates from Shaolin liars also? Now am I saying take people's word as is? No. I am saying you need to do more research before making an uneducated statement.

There's a lot more, but stories abound and each system wants to preserve their lore as truth. I think we can listen to these stories and check with historical facts and see for ourselves.

Of course, you have to look at why people are insistent that their lore is considered "history".

Skepticism is healthy, but when held to the point that it clouds an open mind there is no use for it if you are looking to see the world in full color. You need to do more research.

[hunt1]

Savi as far as history goes you have been sold a bill of goods if you believe what you posted. Andreas Hoffmans own lineage of Chi Sim Weng Chun clearly states that Wong Wah Bo taught Sum Kam who tought Fung Sui Ching etc. The same Wong Wah Bo that taught Leung Jan. There is no dispute nor has there ever been that Wong Wah Bo was part of the Red boat troops. So by reaching to Chi Sim as back up for your history you only further strengthen the Red Boat connection for all Wing Chun.

You also grasp at historical clouds when you invoke Pao fa Lin wing chun as somehow providing support for your unsuported positions. Kwok Kai a direct student of Pao Fa Lin has stated several times in public that the history of his wing chun should be the same as all other wing chun from Fatshan. All one has to do is see pao fa lin wing chun to know that this is true as it has much in common with all other versions of Fatshan wing chun. It has absolutely nothing in common with HFY other than the commanalities that exist across all versions of wing chun