Bai Si

[Eddie]

Bai Si

I want to know exactly what Bai Si really is. To those whom it matters to. What exactly does it mean, and what is the real significance of it.

Im not interested in an argument about how unimportant it is in your martial arts development today, just want to know exactly what it means.

[hskwarrior]

eddie,

bai si is the ceremony where you officially take your sifu as your sifu for life. it usually means the student becomes almost like family. and the student is expected to take care of the sifu in all ways possible.

IMO, the bai si isn't something that should be taken lightly, you don't have to go through a bai si to represent you are a life long disciple, but its official.

of course you pour and offer tea, and even a hong bow.........or in other words, indoor disicples.....


but im sure others will have a better explanation.

[Eddie]

i understand that part, what i want to know. Once you bai si to sifu X. Can you still train with Sifu Y?

Is it still comon practice amongst todays martial artists?

[hskwarrior]

you can do what you want eddie, but there will be those who say you are doing the wrong thing cause traditionally its a straight up no no to take on another sifu while you already have one.

[hskwarrior]

traditional MA's yes, newbie's........are more apt to go the MMA training route and take on new coaches.

personally, i explain to my students they can leave me for another sifu, but it's a straight up NO NO to leave me for my sifu. but once you take on that other sifu, you are going to have to worry about burned bridges.....

[Eddie]

thanks for that so far.

Is it a cluture thats still really being practiced? isnt it a bit to traditional for modern traditionalists?

is that where the Close door student thing comes from?

Most great masters studied with a few teachers. For Example, Lee Koon Hung. If they followed this tradition, does it mean that they didnt bai si to any of their sifus? Or can they bai si to more than one sifu?

[cranky old man]

l am new as to posting on here . have been around the arts for more than 4 decades. l have learned other arts untill l did bi ci to my pak mei sifu many years ago and as tradition calls for l cannot do bi ci to anyone else. if a teacher accepts knowingly a disciple whos done bi ci to another hes generaly looked upon with dis-favour the student would never be accepted back to the original or worse in my younger days.

[taaigihk]

This is an interesting question.

I know for sure that after going through baishi you can still learn from other teachers.
Wheteher you can go through it more than once, that depends on particular line or teacher.
There are some that alow that, and some that don't. I've been told that it's like with food. If you want to eat something, than you probably need it, so no one should stop you from doing that. I've also been told that if a teacher forbids you to learn from other teachers, then there must be something wrong with him (and his knowledge).. Of course life is more complicated and it may be a delicate matter even with teachers that officially allow multiple baishi.


Also, after going through baishi you get access to deeper knowledge, but still there may be gradation among students depending on what is their relationship with the teacher.

On a side note, life is short and if one wants to learn and understand a cma style it's almost impossible to take more than one, unless it is treated as a supplement. So the problem solves itself naturally

[cranky old man]

traditionaly if your sifu allows you to work out with someone which happens its okay. you can go to his senior its accepted . but in my young days if a new teacher at a new style was done the two would talk about it first or if you couldnt get along with the one you did bi ci to. then you could change . but if you went to some who traditionaly fought against your style then you would be considered a traitor. also when you started unless you did bi ci he was only your instructor not sifu as the terms you use are family terms . they are similar to what youd call your blood ties. a lot use these terms as ranks which they are not. before l changed to pak mei my sifu spoke with my last instructor be fore l started. now these terms are thrown around all the time . anyway have a good day .

[cranky old man]

traditionaly no teacher would allow someone whos done bi ci to another as sifu is like saying father as traditionaly you dont have more than one father. but theres lots who arent aware of old traditions and make up as they go along .

[Wong Ying Home]

You can have one father but many uncles

[hskwarrior]

i agree with Wong Ying Home about the 1 father many uncles......but in your opinion WYH, do you call the uncles si-sook while you are training under them, or do you call them sifu too?

personally, i was trained that once you take a sifu, he is your sifu for life. From the sifu's standpoint, i would prefer to teach all i got to a student who is dedicated to me, and not interested in learning other styles. I explain to my students that ALL gung fu is relative, and that if they see something another style does that they like.....i tell them that everything is within the system. its how you look at it. just because its a traditional system, it doesn't mean you can't evolve it to meet today's standards.

in saying that, i hope to keep my students because i know that the clf system has EVERYTHING you're looking for, all you have to do is look.

but, if thats not enough for someone, then as long as they don't try to take my teacher or his teacher as their new teacher, i would write them a recommendation to any other school. but that person wouldn't be so favored as someone who sticks with me.

IDK, i could be wrong.

[taaigihk]

traditionaly no teacher would allow someone whos done bi ci to another as sifu is like saying father as traditionaly you dont have more than one father. but theres lots who arent aware of old traditions and make up as they go along .

Hi,

there are different traditions then. Maybe it's more like you say in the South. I don't know. I was talking about that with my shiye one day, and he (being a traditional cma teacher, and Chinese) told me very clearly that it should not be a problem. He told me that you're not supposed to be a slave to your "menpai". Rather you should use it for your benefit. The terms are borrowed family terms, yes, but it is not exactly the same on this ground.

Obviously, one can think of circumstances, where another baishi would be considered indelicacy (sometimes even treason, as you've said) but they're not banned as such.