WHERE DID "ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL & REJECT WHAT IS USELESS "COME FROM?

[Ian Brewster]

A good friend of mine went to Korea to study TKD...

He says despite what you might think there isn't I repeat isn't a TKD school on every corner like there is in the US or Canada.

he also says most of those guys who do TKD out in the open and own shops are frauds and just in it to make a buck off silly westerners or milk money from their own people....

He did say however if you find a real TKD instructor you would be surpirsed by what you see...

he said the vast majority of the instructors that he saw had no belt system or if they did the belts represented actual time in the dojo not gradings for say...like a white meant rookie year a purple meant 4 years etc etc ....

he also said that for a time he thought they were doing JKD or NHB style fighting because they did the kicking,punching, clinching and ground fighting plus weapons....

Now he says that in talking to others that real TKD guys and even Karate and Kung Fu guys are truly all around fighters however we in the west have *******ized the art and packaged it into something sellable....
Real martial arts training over in the orient is for the eliote minded people, people who can take punishment for mind and body....

This is a little off topic but i though it might shed some light on some people's statements that Kung Fu and other sister arts are not as unrealistic as many of us would have you believe it is only our lack of training methods and lack of understanding that make it seem so artlike and mot martial like....

Ian B.

My point being is simple, this is not about traditional this or that or even JKD. It is about one simple fact, we fight the way we are trained. What may work for one person may not for another for whatever reasons. The only way though that we will discover this is by asking questions and trying these techniques and concepts first hand. I really do not think Bruce wanted everyone to become JKD fighters, in fact he had closed down all his JKD schools long before he died. What I think he wanted was for people to discover on there own the "martial truth" through whatever art or style or system. To realize that in the course of time information can become misinformation and that not everything works the way it appears. Peace all, and remember it is not the number of techniques you know that shows a good fighter, it is how well you fight.-ED

Hello everyone:
I would like to start this post by saying what I said on an other thread dealing with JKD.

Which is JKDcan be found in any SYSTEM,STYLE OR FORM OF COMBATIVE FIGHTING THERE IS that's just a fact!!!!!

Even BL realized this & knew the truth about what he coined to be the CLASSICAL MESS OF MARTIAL ARTS.

Which in turn mean's at least the way I see it to be is that he felt THE TRADITIONAL WAY OF TRAINING & LEARNING ONE'S CHOSEN MARTIAL ART,STYLE,OR SYSTEM.

Should not become more important then the INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE IF IT DOES ONE WILL NOT KNOW HOW TO TRUELY EXPRESS HIMSELF IN HIS CHOSEN ART.Unless one wanted to train most of his life if not all of it to learn how to do so.

What BL did was nothing new at all to the MARTIAL ARTS,AFTER ALL THE TRUE ESSENCE OF THE MARTIAL ARTS IS TO HAVE THE ART/STYLE/SYSTEM BECOME A PART OF YOU & NOT YOU A PART OF IT!

Look in short what I'm trying to say is JKD is meant as a way for one to be able to flow in & out of the different range's of combat & be affective in a shorter amount of time.

After all it was BL himself that said a man doesn't have his whole life to learn how to fight. HENCE THE BIRTH OF JKD A WAY OF REACHING ONE'S END AS HE BELIEVE'S IT TO BE.(MEANING YOU & ME)

What do you guy's think I mean I could be wrong about the the way I see JKD to be but!

Then agian maybe I'm not?

The real question here is whether you see it the way I do at least to some point I mean I don't believe all of us will agree on every point all the time RIGHT!

PEACE.

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LESTAT 33

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-16-2000).]

[Gojira]

But again Lestat, What is JKD? The man died before anyone could truly see it for what it was.
could there be a slim chance that we, (not I of course) are lamenting over a 'style' that never really saw the light of day?
I mean Inosanto teach something that could be called JKD, but is it truly what Bruce intended it to be.

I do not believe that one man can duplicate the thoughts of another no matter how hard they tried. And I'm sure that BL never finish on what he started, so would the JKD that is around today, in fact a incomplete style to begin with, if it is a style at all.

Boy am I gonna catch some heat for this post.

Again this is me on too much medication, or maybe too little...time to look at the label.


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[This message has been edited by Gojira (edited 02-14-2000).]

Goijri

Hi there! If you've read my post, you'll probably find that I've been expressing these views. Like most developers of new stlyes, Bruce found something that suited him. it is unfortunate that he didn't code (OK my computing back ground) the main aspects into a form or something.

Although there are many stlyes of traditional KF have lost their "bite", there's a chance of rediscovering the concepts as long as the form remains.

There are many Western martial arts in Russsia that have been lost forever becasue they didn't teach forms.

That's very unfortunate because Russia is a big place and greatb things would have been developed there!

Rocklizard,
I am not a big fan when it comes to dead patterns (forms, katas, and what have you), I also do not discount as a whole, Kung Fu as I feel there are many useful aspects in Kung Fu. As for Ma's becoming lost over time, I feel that if it was useful and effective then most likely it would still be here, so I really see your point, I just do not agree, also much the russian MA's are based from grappling and I really can not see how one can convert that to a set of forms or katas. As for JKD being inherantly incomplete, it is like that for a reason, it is up to each individual to complete JKD, through there own experiences and research. What may work for one person may not for another, but we do not base what is effective through dead patterns.-ED

[This message has been edited by Edwin Lyon (edited 02-14-2000).]

[Gideon]

A theory on the kata vs live exercises. If one wishes to play chess against another, one must first learn the moves of his piece. The physical part of martial arts is learning the moves. When one has learned how to move his piece, he may attempt a game. No rule is absolute of course, and some people may prefer to learn their moves 'on the run' so to speak. I don't. I like practicing a move statically before adding other variables. Unfortunately my trainer isn't like that, so I learn on the run, simply because I can, regardless of preference. The mental part of martial arts can be referred to simply as a game of strategy. Once you can move your pieces where you want them to, when you want them to, all that is left to chance is the strategy chosen. Make sense at all?
Gideon

Gojira:
Let me see if we're reading from the same book? Ok because I'm more then sure that we are not on the same page here.;D

Now let me first state that JKD may never have seen the light of day through BRUCE LEE'S EYE'S IN FULL.

But that doesn't mean that JKD never saw the light of day!

Just in case you haven't notice or realized it DAN INOSANTO was the cofounder of JKDregardless of what you or anyone may believe that's just a fact!

So to come out & say that you believe that no one man can duplicate the thought's of another no matter how hard they tried is mute. (RIGHT)

No problem I can see where I may agree with you but only to a point after all BRUCE LEE'S JKD was
based on his own personal approach to the martial arts & no one else's.

That's why he believed JKD is ment to fit the individual & not the individual to it!

This is why I feel that DAN INOSANTO is the only one out side of BRUCE LEEthat has kept it real.

After all if it wasn't for him JKD would not have gotten as far as it has.

Yeah I know there are alot of you out there who may feel what DAN INOSANTO is doing may not be what BRUCE LEE intended JKD to be.

But just remember that DAN INOSANTO was there from the start & as much as what BRUCE LEEhad to offer to DAN!

Inosanto had to offer BRUCE.




[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-18-2000).]

[Sean Madigan]

Hi LESTAT33,

Cool how you can rewrite history like that, you do that for a living, or is it just a hidden talent?

Let's get something straight, Guro Dan is a fantatic martial artist. He is most likely one of the few men in this world that can teach that many martial arts. His seminars are packed, and the volume of information that he gives at seminars is huge! He can kick, punch, grapple, trap and fight with knives better then most martial artist out there today...however, he was NOT the "Co-founder" of JKD. He was not Bruce Lee's partner, he was his student. Anything else is just wrong.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

Hi there
It's very difficult to say person such and such deveoped a particular style. JKD is a relatively young stlye and a number of people over time made their contributions to it's growth.

We have read about how tradition styles developed. It usually involved the melding of styles that were around at that time. For example Eagle Claw is a based on Faan Tzi & Ying Jow. Then you have styles like Bagua that is a cicularised version of long fist. And within sytles there are sub-styles that reflect an emphasis on certain concepts over others.

What Bruce Lee did was nothing new and accordingly I have no problem of accepting that many people are co-developers of JKD and there will be many more to come. I wouldn't be surprised that there'll be many variations of JKD sharing the same concepts but each with their unique differences.

The only differnce in terms of the development of JKD and tranditional styles is that, we can see JKD evolution taking place in front of us instead of reading about a style's 300 year old history from a book.

About what LETSTAT33 said "...fit the individual not the individual fitting the style". That concept is nothing new, that's why we have all the different styles today. Lee did not create a new concept but just re-affirm something important that some people may have forgotten in the pursuit of CMA.

[Gojira]

Gee Sean I though Mr Inosanto was a co-founder of the JKD style, I must re-read my history books. And as for Lestat re writing history, all I have to say is GO BOY!!.
Can some one clear up the histoy mess without to groveling to BL or DI?

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Life is like a hourglass, how much sand is there in yours?

Oh come on just because I may see things differently from what you perceive them to be DOESN'T mean that I'm trying to REWRITE the HISTORY of JKD here Sean....

So since you have taken the time to express how you feel about the way I see them to be. Which is totaly wrong in your eyes RIGHT!

I would like to ask a few questions ok?

Why is it you feel that DAN INOSANTO should not be considered BRUCE LEE'S PARTNER let alone the CO-FOUNDER OF JKD & he should only be considered as a student & nothing more....

Now if your willing to enlighten me as well as the other members of this form as to how you perceive the roll that DAN INOSANTO played in JKD.

It would be more then welcome But most importantly I would like to know how you feel about the roll that DAN INOSANTO PLAYED after BRUCE LEE'S DEATH...

What BRUCE LEE wanted?

The way I see it DAN INOSANTO is the only one who has kept it the way BRUCE LEE intened it to be!

Oh & by the way it was DAN INOSANTO who wrote & I quote "TOTALITY & FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION TOWARD THE ULTIMATE REALITY OF COMBAT SHOULD BE THE GOAL OF ALL MARTIAL ARTISTS.
TO ACHIEVE THIS,ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL REJECT WHAT IS USELESS & ADD WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY YOUR OWN....

Dan Inosanto even wrote a book under the title of ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL.

The way I see it JKD was based on the concepts of any & all of the martial arts that BL himself came in contact with why else would he say (BRUCE LEE) that is that JKD favors formlessness & by doing so it can not be held by any restricted ways of combat.


PEACE


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LESTAT 33

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 02-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 03-11-2000).]

[Sean Madigan]

Hi LESTAT33,

Ok, I'll just answer your points one by one.

You wrote: Why is it you feel that DAN INOSANTO should not be considered BRUCE LEE'S PARTNER let alone the CO-FOUNDER OF JKD & he should only be considered as a student & nothing more....

I feel that nobody can be considered the "co-creator" of Jeet Kune Do. I firmly beleive that Jeet Kune Do is the creation of Bruce Lee, and those around him where just plain old lucky to be there.

You wrote: "Now if your willing to enlighten me as well as the other members of this form as to how you perceive the roll that DAN INOSANTO played in JKD."

Dude, I doubt I could 'enlighten' you to anything, to assume that I would first have to consider myself, 'enlightend' and I am not. Now, to answer the second part of that, I feel that Dan Inosanto was Bruce Lee's student, friend, sparring partner and punching bag when needed.

You Wrote: "It would be more then welcome But most importantly I would like to know how you feel about the roll that DAN INOSANTO PLAYED after BRUCE LEE'S DEATH..."

Ahh..now, I do feel that Guro Dan is the SOLE creator of Jeet Kune Do Concepts! Dan Inosanto did more then just about anybody else in keeping the name of Jeet Kune Do alive and in the minds of martial artist everywhere!

Now lets make sure that we do not forget that there is a difference in the way that Jeet Kune Do was taught under Bruce Lee and the way that Jeet Kune Do Concepts are taught under Guro Dan. (I am not saying 'better' or 'worse'...just different.) When Bruce Lee was alive, he had a set curriculum, he taught from that curriculum, and (Yes, I have a copy) in it there is NO mention of other martial arts. Yes, he does mention other martial arts in his notes, (later released as the Tao of JKD) but make no mistake in believing that when Bruce Lee was alive, there was NO "Thai Class" at his school.

You wrote: "What BRUCE LEE wanted?

Man, I really don't know. I feel that he was on a path to reducing his techniques, not increasing them.

You wrote: "The way I see it DAN INOSANTO is the only one who has kept it the way BRUCE LEE intened it to be!"

Ok, you can believe that. I will not argue you on that. We all have beliefs, our may differ on this one.

You wrote: "Oh & by the way it was DAN INOSANTO who wrote & I quote "TOTALITY & FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION TOWARD THE ULTIMATE REALITY OF COMBAT SHOULD BE THE GOAL OF ALL MARTIAL ARTISTS.
TO ACHIEVE THIS,ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL REJECT WHAT IS USELESS & ADD WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY YOUR OWN...."

Cool, did you also know that Dan Inosanto wrote on page 145 in the book Jeet Kune Do, The Art and Philosophy of Bruce Lee this:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>An individual can not learn the principle roots of Jeet Kune Do through the accumulation of many different styles; for that would be like a singer trying to improve his voice by accumulating many songs. Rather: it is by understanding the roots of the problem. - Dan Inosanto[/quote]

Weird huh?

You Wrote: "Dan Inosanto even wrote a book under the title of ABSORB WHAT IS USEFUL."

I know, I have an original copy...oh, and its autographed by Dan.

Remember, Jeet Kune Do is the "Way of NO WAY"...NOT the Way of MANY ways, and yes, there is a difference.

I do not expect to change your mind on this, and I am sure that you have logged 100's of hours with Dan (your not one of these guys that read the Tao of JKD a few times and now he thinks he KNOWS JKD LOL). I respect that, and I respect Dan Inosanto.

There is more then one way to look at JKD, I have mine, and you have yours. That is the way it should be.

Have an awesome day!

BIG Sean Madigan

www.junfanjkd.com

PS: Sorry, but I am not as good as you when it comes to this HTML stuff, but I tried my best to keep up with you. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Sean Madigan (edited 02-29-2000).]

Ok there Sean:
Let me first start by saying I see where your coming from when you say that you firmly believe that JKD is & was the creation of BL & thats why you feel that nobody should be considered the "co-creator" of JKD.

Even DAN INOSANTO should not be considered a co-founder/co-creator of BRUCE LEE'S JKD because you feel that he was just BRUCE LEE'S student,friend,sparring partner & punching bag when needed RIGHT!?

But yet you go on to say that GURO DAN is the sole creator of JKD CONCEPTS! & that he did more then just about anybody else in keeping the name of JKD alive!

Now the question I would like to ask you is why would say such a thing only to go on to make it a point to say lets make sure that we do not forget that there is a difference in the way that JKD was taught under BL & the way that JKD CONCEPTS is taught under GURO DAN ( your not saying better or worse just different.)

I take it the reason you feel this way is because you feel that BL was on the path to reducing his techniques & not increasing them RIGHT?

So I take it you feel that what GURO DAN has done & has been doing is not what BL intended.

Now I would like to make the way I see what DAN INOSANTO has done & has been doing in my eyes clear to you ok...

BRUCE LEE'S JKD was based on the concepts of every & any system,style or way of fighting he came in contact with.

The way I see it GURO DAN has keep it the way BL would have wanted it to be.

In short one has to has to have something to work with before he can decide what works & what doesn't. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


PEACE




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LESTAT 33

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 03-18-2000).]

Now I would like to continue where I last left off with you Sean. The reason being I don't think I may have made myself clear enough for you to understand what I'm saying here! But most of all why.....

So with all do respect I would like to make it clear that this is & should not be taken as an attack towards you in any way shape or form ok!!!

Now should you want to take it as one thats all up to you. After all I think I've made it QUITE CLEAR already as to how I see the way JEET KUNE DO is seen through my eyes ok... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Now I would like to point out where you & me disagree on this topic ok ...

Let me first start off by saying you made it a point to say something to the effect of make no MISTAKE that when BL was alive,there was NO "THAI CLASS" at his school,because the copy you have of the original set of ways that BRUCE LEE did his JKD & the way that DAN INOSANTO is & has been doing his JKD.

Seem to be different only because we've been left with a taste in our mouth that was so good we can't believe thats it's gone or is it??? WHAT DO YOU THINK SEAN?..

The reason why I'm asking you this is because you sound confused to me as to what side you choose to stand on is it your's BRUCE LEE'S or DAN INOSANTO'S way of doing HIS JKD...

I mean you have gone on to say on another post that you are a strong supporter of the JUN FUN JEET KUNE DO NUCLEUS & YET YOU TRAIN WITH BOTH A KNIFE & STICK.....

That sounds to me like your beside yourself here Sean. The reason I'm saying this is because you call what you do "BIG JKD" & you feel that your BIG JKD has no side other then the way that you feel your BIG JKD SEE'S THINGS TO BE RIGHT..

& you base this on your own truth or should I say the search for your truth through what you call BIG JKD....

So Sean do you see what I'm saying & have been saying here which is MY TRUTH MAY NOT BE YOU TRUTH JUST AS MY ENDING MAY NOT BE YOUR ENDING HENCE BRUCE LEE'S ENDING IS NOT & SHOULD NOT BE THE SAME AS DAN INOSANTO'S ENDING,JUST AS THE ENDING OF WHAT YOU CALL BIG JKD & THE WAY I SEE JKD TO BE...

SHOULD NOT BE THE SAME I MEAN ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THE ESSENCE OF WHAT WE BELIEVE JKD TO BE BUT AFTER THAT IT'S ALL UP TO YOU
AFTER ALL EVEN IF BL WAS ALIVE EVEN HE COULD NOT TAKE YOU BEYOND YOUR LIMIT'S FOR ONLY YOU KNOW HOW FAR YOU CAN GO BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY HOW FAR YOU ARE WILLING TO GO?
PEACE
LESTAT 33

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LESTAT 33

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 03-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LESTAT33 (edited 03-21-2000).]