Originally Posted by RD'S Alias - 1A
And which style would that be?
Just about every so called TCMA "fighting" style is being passed on these days without actual fighting being done.
jeff
Hak Fu Stylist
And which style would that be?
Just about every so called TCMA "fighting" style is being passed on these days without actual fighting being done.
jeff
少林黑虎門
Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun
RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)
Hak Fu Stylist
That's not the point... most claim they take martial arts for self defense, if you can't fight or don't train to fight, how are you preparing for self defense?
jeff
少林黑虎門
Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun
RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)
The Emperor!!
Just about every so called TCMA "fighting" style is being passed on these days without actual fighting being done.
Reply]
Then they are not being passed on. They are being lost....if they have not been lost already.
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I have to appoligise. Don't take me all too seriously because that's not my intended tone. I'm being half serious and half trying to be funny. Thought this thread started off kind of silly and I'm just trying to "go with it."
I actually do like Metallica. But I'm not crazy about their work after "justice for all." But I was trying to be funny.
Monji....no I don't carry a gun nor own one. My comment about hand to hand combat being useless in this world I think is generally true. Sure you may find yourself in that situation without you asking for it in real life. In that case I think youre better off looking for a way to run away if you can. Fighting should be avoided at all costs because you don't know who your touching hands with, where their friends are, what weapons they may be carrying, or what diseases they have. If you can convince me that the average person needs to be a fighter in today's modern society then youre welcome to. It's just that so many people live fine, happy lives without it.
I think most of you are saying that a "martial art" should be martial, or else call it yoga or something.
In reality there are too many variables in a real self-defense situation to train for it. Put it this way jmd161, if you run track you don't say that you do it for self defense but it sure can save your life - maybe more so than throwing punches and kicks. I think that you assume that self-defense=fighting. I don't see it that way. Running track can be self-defense training too.
I don't hate MMA either. In my day all schools were "stand-up" type schools. It was stand up sparring one way or the other (point, light contact, heavy contact). So that's what I did and competed in when I was younger. I don't have a need for sport's competition in my life at this point (I'm too tired from all my other responsibilities). Had MMA been around sooner I probably would have cross trained in it -as a younger man with more time to indulge my own interests. It has definately improved the entire MA community like someone pointed out above. It forced instructors to be more honest.
I remember some of the goofy one, two, three, step self-defense techniques taught in some of my classes when I was a kid. Ridiculous stuff that you were made to believe would actually work in the street. So even if youre training so called "self-defense" techniques you actually may not be. Alot of people train in techniques they think will work in reality because instructors instill this notion. People don't take into account fear, adrenaline, or a million other things that can work against you.
But I guess a "martial art" should be martial. I'm just at a different stage in my life where I'd rather just get exercise out of it than the fighting.
Hak Fu Stylist
Exactly!
RD, if this is news to you?
Then you need to get out more often bro! I'm the biggest fan there is of TCMA, but even I know that 95% of the TCMA out there is bull crap!
jeff
少林黑虎門
Sil Lum Hak Fu Mun
RIP Kuen "Fred" Woo (sifu)
The Emperor!!
It's hardly news to me. I have been saying this for 10 year now.
Except for the few lines that still do the Old School training, learning actual *Martial* TCMA is a process of reconstruction.
It is possible, because the forms are still here, and if you dig enough the over all tactics and strategys are still around (never seems to all be in one place though), but you have to do a LOT of independent research just to figure out *How* your style is supposed to fight, and then you have to develop a curriculum that is more like the Old School, "Pre form factory" days.
A large number of TCMA schools don't even know the correct apps of the form's techniques. You literally have to start seearching out others of your style, or realted styles and look to how they are applying the techniques under fire (Watching San Shou is good for this).
Once you have halfway workable apps, you need to start drilling and then fire testing them to restore thier potency. It's kind of like rebuilding a 1929 Chevy that came to your shop in Boxes with little documentation as to what it's original state was. Yes, you CAN restore it, but it's a monumental effort, and some things will never be like original. (And yes, I had to restore 1929 Chevy once...it came to our shop in Boxes....)
For all of us who have been in the TCMA world a long time, this is a big task...for all the newbies, it is just impossible. I hate to say it, but beginners have to have a dialed in connection to one of the Old School lines. If they don't they would be better off in MMA.
Last edited by RD'S Alias - 1A; 10-07-2007 at 12:24 PM.
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First, Merryprankster said it correctly (about why I made the thread), “I think it's a disection of what Xia feels to be a lack of faith by TCMA practitioners lately in their arts, and a perceived amount of ego being injected into the whole deal.”
That pretty much sums it up.
As for my comments on MMA and sloppiness, I can go on and on about that. This conversation has been had over and over here and elsewhere. So I'd like to avoid dwelling on that topic.
Another thing is that I do know people who are into MMA that aren’t jerks. It just so happens that they were involved with some other type of sport fighting before it (on a side note, they’ll be the first to say that the stand-up game of UFC fighters is rather bad). However, most of the people that have become interested in MMA through the UFC seem to be dumb jock types from my experience. It’s just something I notice.
On Carradine, I just used him because his name has become associated with the personality type I mentioned. That, and from my experience, those types like the TV series. But I personally don’t know much about him or the show.
For all of you that say that 99% (or whatever) of TCMA schools suck. Do you really think it’s that bad? I’d venture the guess that percentage-wise, there are more good TCMA schools then Tae Kwan Do. The TCMA community is that, a community, so don’t you guys know people then just yourself that are training effectively? It's a bit odd to me that there are loads of threads where posters talk about how they saw this skilled sifu the other day, or that school and how their students had excellent Gung Fu, or how this video on youtube shows great Gung Fu, etc, meanwhile, you look on other threads and posters are saying how TCMA is dying lol. I think all the trolling has gotten to TCMA people. I think all the talk about how TCMA sucks has backed people into a corner where the defense is "Well yeah 99% suck but not me." I feel this way: sure, there are cartons of bad apples, but there are still good schools, students, and teachers. There are plenty of good TCMA that could care less about MMA and the UFC because it's not really part of the TCMA world. If TCMA want to compete, there is Lei Tai, Kuoshu, TCMA tournaments, etc. Not to mention, there are plenty of good TCMA that aren't interested in sport fighting. That doesn't make them bad martial artists. My advice, don't let the internet make you lose faith in what you know is true.
Last edited by The Xia; 10-07-2007 at 10:55 PM.
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I wouldn't recommend trying to reconstruct anything. There are many aspects that have to be passed on through hand-to-hand transmissions. So instead of busting your hump and getting nowhere, isn't it better to find a good sifu?
I disagree. Lots of San Shou fighters don't have TCMA backgrounds. Although some do... Let's put it this way, giving Mandarin and Cantonese names to boxing techniques doesn't make it TCMA.
As I said before, many things need to be passed on directly from teacher to student.
I think that's totally off. There are still plenty of good sifus out there.
Last edited by The Xia; 10-07-2007 at 11:03 PM.
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but then, you can't even identify what is "real," so you can't provide examples when asked by MMA types.[/QUOTE]
just want to clarify what you mean by this?
Itinerant practitioner
I haven't lost any "faith" in what I train at all.
Mostly because I lack concern about what others are into. lol
People are entitled to make their own mistakes and certainly are even more entitaled to their successes.
Nobody has to take the point of view of someone else based on tat other persons experience which is frankly 100% irrelevant in context to what personally inspires or motivates any of us.\
Igf you like "x" that's cool, I like "y". It's ok if you don't like it, but it is also safe to say, you don't know much about it either ergo, commentary on that which you have no experience with is irrelevant.
Having said that, I do notice there are a lot of people who go on about traditional chinese martial arts that don't or haven't ever put any effort into achieving something with them.
You know what, that's cool too.
Kung Fu is good for you.
Registered User
I think TMA people forget that there are a full range of practices including martial theatre, martial commerce, and martial arts that are all competing for regard on the public stage. Add to this non-TMA practices such as MMA and suddenly it becomes clear that what is underdiscussion is more a matter of which way the revenues go.
Another point to keep in mind is that advertising is expensive and impersonal. By repeatedly going out on the INTERNET and baiting traditionalists, MMA people keep themselves in the public eye at little or no expense to themselves.
Yet another point is that TMA people rarely have the same goals and intentions in mind as the MMA people. To make the MMA arguement valid, one must first reduce TMA practices to nothing more than fighting. And, if you review practically every thread on any forum you will find that the arguement first begins when a TMA person invokes the idea that there is something greater going on than the some of the art's parts. The MMA person says "no there isn't" and we are off-and-running.
If I had any voice in any of this I would encourage Traditionalists to stop allowing themselves to be used as foils or pawns through which MMA people gain access to non-MMA forums.
Just a thought. As always "YMMV".
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Last edited by Bruce W Sims; 10-08-2007 at 06:13 AM. Reason: clarification
The Emperor!!
I wouldn't recommend trying to reconstruct anything. There are many aspects that have to be passed on through hand-to-hand transmissions. So instead of busting your hump and getting nowhere, isn't it better to find a good sifu?
Reply]
Finding a good teacher is very difficult.
If only 10% are good teachers, what are the 90% to do? maybe it's just not geographically feasible for 70% of the 90. Then what?
Maybe you have been in a style for 10+ years, but can't fight with it due to a lack of contact, or because you learned from someone who either does not know the actuall apps, or won't teach them.
What do you do then?
Many Chinese teachers don't teach anyway, and EXPECT you to figure it out yourself (IE Reconstruct it or flat out make it up yourself).
There are a lot of upper level guys who came up in form factories, who are now teachers. Should they just pass on as thier teachers did? or reconstruct the style so it is restored back to it's original roots?
If they are passionate about thier art, restoring it is the only option...the same way I restored that old 1929 Chevy that came to our shop in boxes. Sure, by the time our crew got done with it, some details were off, but over all it was a really good job. There are enough TCMA to be found to where we can restore these arts the same way I did that 1929 Chevy. If you are a teacher of this generation, Why not do so? Would you rather pass on the watered down useless non functional system you learned? Or would you rather restore it to it's former greatness by getting back to the roots and adding alive training, shifting the focus away from forms and back to two man technique practice etc...? Why not study and research fight footage untill you see apps for parts of the forms you were never taught application? It's all out there, you just have to find all the pieces of the puzzle to do it.
I am not talking about students here. They would be better off finding a good teacher, or going to MMA if none are available. I am talking about today's generation of TCMA teachers. I am talking about people who already HAVE the forms, the system, the over all flavor of thier style.
Last edited by RD'S Alias - 1A; 10-08-2007 at 06:54 AM.
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Moo Moo
as pointed out;
1. a good teacher and a good school of a certain style may not be readily available to everyone.
we will do whatever that is available first.
2. personal development is indeed a "personal" thing. we learn and take whatever in class and go from there.
3. since we may not "transpose" our personal experiences onto others. then let it be. MMA peeps will speak from MMA perspectives. TMA/CMA peeps will speak from their points of views. right or wrong. you be the judge of it based on your experiences. do not read and trust all the posts from the forums. I read many Chinese websites and forums. just to get some info. the discussion parts I just glanced thru and not paying much attention to them. or over critical. however, the info parts, I have to research more before I even quote or link them.
4. The fate of TMA or any style of MA lies in the hands of the practitioners. yes some practitioners never teach. yes some not so good teachers are teaching a lot of students. again for the students, we take whatever is available and go from there. more students, more people interested, more propagation, more research and development, then the style "live" and "grow".
5. again personal development, with the family, work and modern mundane living, how much time an indiviual may devote to a style or styles of MA???
6. in short, whatever works for you works for you. no matter lessons are from MMA/mt+bjj or aikido, judo, shuai jiao, boxing, etc etc.
peace.
Master of Chu Bagua
It all has to do with the training.
I recently videotaped some forms on 8mm for my family, and I had one or two I did about a year ago to compare with. My SD stuff was wretched then, and much better now, although I can see where it has to go to get better.
We have all these training and one-step drills, and techniques......as do most styles. My Longfist one did, too. But they only taught those later on, they said. So every day in Longfist, I'd do my forms, have the guy correct my postures, the angles of hands, the manner in which I shifted weight, the "correct" height at which to punch---all of them aesthetic trimmings. The form looked pretty nice, but it was useless to me ( and as a consequence, I don't practice it at all, and don't remember much of it in sequence....only a couple of bits from the beginning....LOL)
But in SD, my forms don't look as "cool" even though they are developing aesthetically as I begin to understand them. And I credit this to all the drills, techniques, and one-step things, as well as specific classes on pressure point striking, takedowns, punching and kicking drills, extensive sparring-----it's the stuff outside the forms that will enhance the learning of the forms. Not vice versa.
If you learn forms first, and the drills later, only after having "mastered" the forms, I think you develop the wrong mindset. You try to go back and inject techniques into the forms. Better to have learned the techniques with the form, so the form is the technique.....know what I mean?
Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 10-08-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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I find myself agreeing with practically everything thats being shared. There is one small piece that still brings me up short. That piece has to do with the idea of forms-work as it relates to combat.
I would be the first to say that use of forms is only one of a range of training techniques one uses to cultivate their skillset. I bet noone would spend 100% of their time on weight-training to the exclusion of all else either, right?
The other thing is that even though there are four different categories of forms including Teaching, Demonstration, Conditioning and Training, none of these forms will look exactly as they do if parts or techniques are used in combat. The techniques are idealized to assure that the person is executing them letter perfect, and the lack of a person working within the same time and space changes things as well. Still the material of itself is still valid.
The only other point I would mention is that Traditionalists labor under an additional obligation to preserve (or CONserve) the tradition passed to them. Joining a traditional kwan for instance---as in my case---- obligates me to preserving the traditons I have learned. What is more, the YON MU KWAN , to which I belong, obligates its members to delve into and research traditions rather than just seeking out "the next big thing". I can tell you that these obligations are not for the faint of heart.
No real point. Just some odd thoughts to toss into the kitty.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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