What is the difference between Akido, and Chin Na?

[TenTigers]

Chris nailed it..chin-na is not a style, it is a catagory of technique. Plain and simple, it is seizing and twisting, but has sub-catagories such as sealing the breath, and vital point striking. So Aikido has Chin-na,Hapkido has chin-na,jiu-jutsu has chin-na, and wrestling has chin-na. Your Mom grabbed your wrist and squeezed it hard saying,"NO!" making you drop it,when you picked up something that you shouldn't, that was chin-na. Translate it into English and you don't have to try to figure it out. You will realise how ridiculous this conversation is:
"What's the difference between Aikido and siezing and twisting?"
Now, of course you might want to delve deeper and ask, "What is the difference between Aikido's locking techniques and TWC's locking techniques?"or, Shuai Jiao's, or Hapkido's,etc., and down the list.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What is the difference between Akido, and Long Fist, Taiji, Eagle claw and Bagua Chin Na?

[Mr Punch]

During Ueshiba Morihei's early travels in Manchuria he most likely learned bagua forms an chin na from the people he traveled with.

Where DOES this crap come from? I hear this unsubstantiated and completely unfounded nonsense in a lot of places. WTF makes you think in your wildest imaginings, thata Chinese MA master (notoriously cagey about teaching to foreigners even now) would accept a member of a foreign invading, occupying and notoriously brutal enemy army into their little teaching circles?

I learned to fall and to recieve and bind an attack so that i could have a chance of countering with something more aggressive.

I think you learned crap aiki. That's not a personal attack - there's a lot of it about.

As far as aggression is concerned: every aiki move starts with a strike, and many of them incorporate strikes on the way to further disrupt the body structure and balance of the opponent. The whole ideal of handling someone without damaging them is supposed to be the highest level and is widely recognised as just that: an ideal.

And although the wrsit grab and other unrealistic grabs are slated in aiki, they should only be practiced until the student has grasped the basic movements. My sensei always said, "If you can lock them great, but if they let go, just hit them!" In the old days, if soemone grabbed your sword hand, your sword hand would initiate the lock but the ulitmate aim was to cut through your opponent: the locks rarely came off - they were mostly releases so you could strike into your opponent and get the kuzushi (or get the kuzushi in the process of the release).

as for chin na, those techniques are what i feel to be the Base and fundamentals of aikido as well as aikido being a japanese version of Bagua(in a sense) both are circular in nature and both rely on grappling and manipulating the joints and take downs with emphasis on hyper extending those joints to the point of tearing ligaments right off the bone.

Utter bollocks.

1) Chin-na, as just stated by Ten Tigers and others is not form one source and there are very different chin-na across very different arts.
2) NO chin-na is part of the base/fundamentals of aikido, which along with its sister art jujutsu is the most provenly original Japanese art with references going back to the 6th century with the single exception of sumai.
3) Aikido is not the Japanese version of bagua, or any other Chinese martial art in historical terms.
3) The little chin-na I've been shown in wing chun is very very straight - the delivery is the abject opposite of aikido. Sure if your art is more circular there will be more similarities. But even then: a lot of tai chi is circular but a lot is also direct.

[Mr Punch]

This may not make any sense to most folks but the difference is actually quite simple.

Translation: I made this up, and you might not agree, but if you don't that's because there is something deficient in you.

Aikido, somewhat like Korean YU SOOL is based on Newtonian Physics, including manipulation of velocity, angle/vectors, mass, power, timing and so forth.

This is a specious comment. All MA are based on Newtonian physics. Unless you're watching 'The Matrix'!

Philosophically, it doesn't have anything to do with physics: Ueshiba was a martial artist in the literal sense of the word (i.e. a soldier who supposedly used his arts in battle - certainly his yari/juukendo upon which all of aikido's core body movement is based, and possibly his kenjutsu, upon which most of aikido's techniques are based) and then more into metaphysics than he ever was into physics.

The physics is purely your interpretation, as is the 'impacting the neuro-muscular system'.

[Mr Punch]

What is the difference between Akido, and Long Fist, Taiji, Eagle claw and Bagua Chin Na?

There's no such thing as 'akido'.

[TenTigers]

to answer my own question, when you get down to it, you will probably not find a difference in the actual locking. Perhaps the delivering of the strikes before and after,the method of combining it with other locks, and the flow, and the footwork, but a wrist,(or any other joint) will twist one way, and the other, up and down, etc. Bend it past its range of motion, or bend it against its natural motion, and there you have it. Probably the main difference will be the type of pajamas one wears when practicing.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, what are the stylistic differences?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What techniques are in Akido that are not seen in Chinese Chin Na?

Of the techniques that are the same, what is the difference in usage?

[Mr Punch]

So, what are the stylistic differences?

I wear a dressing gown. It's nice. Thick dark green towelling.

[SanHeChuan]

I would suggest going to an aikido school and finding out for your self. No answer we give will be as meaningful. All the Aikido schools I ever went to were hands on day one.

[Mr Punch]

What techniques are in Akido that are not seen in Chinese Chin Na?

What is this 'akido' of which you keep speaking? FFS it's spelt 'aikido'. That's with a ****ing I

I've never seen kaiten-nage in any Chinese MA, but it might be there.

Nor irimi-nage as such, but breaking it down into its component moves and you may come across elements of it in chin-na, or more likely shoe chow (OK, you've got me on the spelling there! ).

Outside sumi-otoshi is another one I've never seen.

The only lock or manipulation ( as opposed to throw) I've never seen in CMA is yonkyou.

But then, I'm no expert on shuiuiuiui chiao or chin-na, so I wouldn't know.

[The Willow Sword]

Where DOES this crap come from? I hear this unsubstantiated and completely unfounded nonsense in a lot of places. WTF makes you think in your wildest imaginings, thata Chinese MA master (notoriously cagey about teaching to foreigners even now) would accept a member of a foreign invading, occupying and notoriously brutal enemy army into their little teaching circles?

Hey Moron, try reading some books about Ueshiba Morehai, i have a few. I was just specualting about the learning of bagua and such, maybe he didnt maybe he did,who knows, but you cant deny the similarity in movement and structure to aikido and bagua, i have done both styles and see the difference and also recognize the similarities. As to the last portion of your dumba$$ comments, reread the first sentence i wrote.


I think you learned crap aiki. That's not a personal attack - there's a lot of it about

See thats the issue with you Mr Dunce, you are trying to do something that you obviously do not have a lot of skill with, THINKING. I learned my Aikido in the 80's from Good teachers here in Texas, Joseph Birdsong Being one of them, Mark Cartwright being another, dont know of these People? LIke i care.

Utter bollocks.(your reply to my statement about my opinions on Aikido and Chin na and bagua.

What does Chin-Na Mean dipsh!t? It essentially means "Seize and Control". So what does Aikido do? or AikiJuitsu? SEIZE AND CONTROL. The styles are different because of the practitioners or Masters teaching it out. but the techniques are Universal and apply to the SAME ANATOMY of the Human Body. Or maybe there is a difference in anatomy between japanese and Chinese that i am not aware of where this would not come into play

Bagua is circular in nature,by its very essence and fundamentals it is. So is AIKIDO, the main difference is that Aikido doesnt stop the motion to strike with force. I recognize the structural differences of Both Systems but also see the Glaring similarity to them both, which is why my experienced opinion allows me to say, AIKIDO is a Japanese version of Bagua(in a sense). I didnt say it was an exact duplicate you dimwit.
You want to get into a flame war over this id be happy to oblige, Mr Dunce, and JFY your non personal attacks to me are as transparant as you are regarding how much you actually KNOW about Aikido. I am offering up opinions and some experience here. YOU are starting sh!t, and i dont take sh!t from anyone.

Hey and if really want to split hairs here, you do Aikijutsu right? Well that really isnt the same as Aikido now is it? Oh but it is Similar right?

TWS

[Mr Punch]

You got Tourette's or something?

It's kind of a badge of honour to get such a heated, childish and abusive comeback from a renowned forum ass like you Swordy.

This is me , not addressing any of what you may like to pass off as points.

[Bruce W Sims]

You got Tourette's or something?

It's kind of a badge of honour to get such a heated, childish and abusive comeback from a renowned forum ass like you Swordy.

This is me , not addressing any of what you may like to pass off as points.


Translation: I made this up, and you might not agree, but if you don't that's because there is something deficient in you.

Not sure where all the anger is coming from. As far as I can tell we are having an decent discussion. A mildly self-deprecating comment is considered appropriate in those cases where written communications with strangers include declarative
statements. In this fashion one represents himself as peer rather than an authority and the "Hwa" of the exchange is preserved.

As far as my sources, I find that most people tend to stop discussing things if the exchanges get a little too intellectual. Certainly I can provide citations, if thats what you would like. All you need to do is ask, 'kay? The inter-relationships between and among the arts under discussion are pretty well-known and have been examined quite a bit on HAPKIDO FORUM and E-BUDO.

As far as the comment about Newtonian Physics, I was thinking you might want to examine some of the many articles available regarding what has come to be known as "pain-compliance". Just a thought.

Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Mr Punch]

Not sure where all the anger is coming from.

Er, the Willow Sword, I think! I'm being flippant if anything, but I haven't offered you any anger.

Look at your first statement: you say something is simple yet it may be beyond others' understanding... Do you not realise how pompous that makes you seem? Well worthy of some flippancy I feel!

In this fashion one represents himself as peer rather than an authority and the "Hwa" of the exchange is preserved.

Again, I posit that you are presenting yourself as an authority.

Is that 'hwa' Chinese btw? It's no standard Japanese transliteration of 和 that I'm aware of, if that's what you're talking about. And why don't you just use the word 'harmony' which is a reasonably direct translation, no? More attempts to confuse and present yourself as an authority perhaps (NB: more flippancy, still no anger! )?

As far as my sources, I find that most people tend to stop discussing things if the exchanges get a little too intellectual. Certainly I can provide citations, if thats what you would like. All you need to do is ask, 'kay? The inter-relationships between and among the arts under discussion are pretty well-known and have been examined quite a bit on HAPKIDO FORUM and E-BUDO.

E-budo is a reasonable board but one whose members have a tendency to over-theorize and over-analyze... Some people may mistake plain speakers with those incapable of having an intellectual conversation. Some people may get bored of theoreticians but appreciate plain English.

As far as the comment about Newtonian Physics, I was thinking you might want to examine some of the many articles available regarding what has come to be known as "pain-compliance". Just a thought.

Sure, sounds good, could you direct me to a couple please?

For now I'm inclined to go with your statement that there are too many overlapping areas between arts... so that in fact any simplified division between 'Newtonian' arts and 'Neuro-muscular' arts are facetious at best, and time-wasting speciousness at worst. I'm more than willing to look at anything you point me to, and maybe (!) even change my mind!

Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Thank you for your time sir, and best wishes to you too.