What is the difference between Akido, and Chin Na?

[Shaolindynasty]

WTF makes you think in your wildest imaginings, thata Chinese MA master (notoriously cagey about teaching to foreigners even now) would accept a member of a foreign invading, occupying and notoriously brutal enemy army into their little teaching circles?

This is a really good point. I know a guy who is korean and he said he had trouble getting served at restraunts in the mainland last year because they thought he was japanese. I always found the Aikido/ bagua connection to be suspect. I also find the Shorinji kempo story to be equally unlikely. There is an excellent article by David Peterson on the subject of MA history. It mostly covers Ving Tsun but I think it's relevant here. I'll find the link and post it.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/peterson/altwc.php

[Mr Punch]

This is a really good point. I know a guy who is korean and he said he had trouble getting served at restraunts in the mainland last year because they thought he was japanese.

That's a bit of a different point but in the same vein. Perhaps more relevant is that there is a longtime student and sifu of a famous wing chun teacher over here (in Tokyo) who trains in secrecy with a private circle of students, even backing down to another wing chun teacher who challenged his authenticity, because said famous Chinese sifu told him that he didn't want it known by anyone that he'd agreed to teach the Japanese.

I also find the Shorinji kempo story to be equally unlikely.

I don't in that case. Don't forget there are two shorinji arts over here. One is Japanese and the founder never claimed it to be anything other than his own creation and that he thought the name sounded cool (now a long enough lineage in it's own right) and then there's Okinawan Shorinji, which is fairly documented to be old and from Chinese origins. Don't forget also that Okinawa was a separate kingdom with helluva lot of trade with China, and a shared animosity to Imperial Japan.

[lkfmdc]

attention, attention, class is now in session.....

1. Some who claims to do "chin na" is right up there with someone who claims to practice "kicking" or "punching" or "blocking".... I can't think of a single exception in something like 30 years in this of someone who claimed they did "Chin Na" who was not shaddy in at least some degree

2. The idea the the founder of aikido learned anything at all of use or effectively in the SHORT PERIOD OF TIME he spent in China, as part of an occupying force, is so absurd as to not even merit dicussion.

The supposed links between Bagua and Aikido have been dreamed up by idealists (I'm being nice) who can't get past the obvious; ie that since human beings only have 2 arms, 2 legs and joints that all work in the same way it is inevitable they are going to find similar techniques even if they never cross paths

3. RELATED to #2, the stuff that people associate with Bagua (or any other internal martial art) are features of POST WAR AIKIDO

Read about pre war vs post war if you can find a good source

4. All this being said, Aikido is pretty much LARP'ing at it's finest. Last year in black belt magazine there was an interview with the direct inheritor of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu.... his honestly and directness was astounding, he was up front about how the grandmaster taught people incorrectly ON PURPOSE, taught made up crap to most and kept the real system among a very close circle of which Ueyshiba was NOT part.

Add to this Aikido's post war "reorganization" into a spirtitual pursuit, and the cult connection, and you have a wonderful fantasy but not much of a martial art

WOW, Aikido and Chin Na ARE similar!

[Shaolindynasty]

From what I've read about Doshin So, the founder of the Shornji kempo I was reffering to, he traveled china during WW2 and learned from several different chinese masters. I think given the attitude of the mainland chinese ,my friends experience as an example, I find it unlikely to have happened.

note: this doesn't reflect the systems effectiveness for todays practitioners. Also i wasn't there so I can't really say if it happened or not. It's just my opinon.

[TenTigers]

Doshin-so said himself that after visitingthe Shaolin Temple, and seeing the frescoes of the monks practicing, he was so inspired by that and the legends that he created Shorinji Kempo. Never once did he mention ever actually training in Chinese Martial Arts. Shorinji Kempo is basically a jiujutsu style combined with their own version of zen called Kongo zen, which is an accepted religion in Japan.
If you look at the end fight scene in the movie,"Shaolin Temple," it is obvious which stuntmen are from wu-shu and which were from Shorinji Kempo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TuLTizxFFMM
pre-arranged "sparring"

[sanjuro_ronin]

The chinese don't even teach other chinese the "real" kung fu, much less a Japanese.

Aikido is aiki-jutsu, a highly ridgid and over stylized version of aiki-jutsu.
Are there similarities?
Of course, two arms, tow hands, etc, etc...

Shorinji kempo rocks, one need only see "the killing machine" with Sonny Chiba !!

[The Willow Sword]

The idea the the founder of aikido learned anything at all of use or effectively in the SHORT PERIOD OF TIME he spent in China, as part of an occupying force, is so absurd as to not even merit dicussion

Well then lets discuss since you in your high and mighty wisdom and authority deem it unworthy of discussion, i will challenge that inflated view of yourself right off the bat.

I am speculating based on what i have experienced in my training and what i have read. We will never really know what Ueshiba Morehai took away from his time in Mongolia and Manchuria. Maybe he learned some things. i like to think that MAYBE he did, sure it was in a short period of time but since he was already a skilled Warrior and soldier i would think that those with whom he travelled with in that time would have shared combat tactics(is that a SAFE Assumption for you all?) or am i being too idealistic??

Here is an Excerpt from one of the books i own that tells of his journey i am referring to. NOTE: this is retold by his SON Kisshomaru Ueshiba: Book titled BUDO Teachings of the founder of Aikido with introduction by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

"in 1924 Morihei was to emabrk on a journey that would be crucial to his spiritual development. on February 13th he secretly left Ayabe with Onisaburo bound for manchuria and Mongolia,in search of a holy land where they could establish a new world government based on religious precepts. On the 15th,they arrived in Mukden, where they met with Lu Chang K'uei,a famous Manchurian Warlord. Together with Lu, they led the Northwest Autonomous Army(Also Known as the Mongolian Independance army) in to the interior of the country At this time Morihei was given the chinese name "Wang Shou Kao". However their expedition was ill fated: they were victims of a plot concocted by another Warlord,Chang Tso Lin, and when they reached Baian Dalai on June 20th,they found the chinese troops waiting to arrest them. Morihei,Onisaburo and four others were sentenced to Death. Fortunately just before they were due to be executed, a memeber of the Japanese consular staff intervened and secured their release and a safe return to Japan."

This excerpt basically describes his short journey to china where he spent several months, definately enough time to learn a few things and add to his repotoire(its just a speculation but there it is)


The supposed links between Bagua and Aikido have been dreamed up by idealists (I'm being nice) who can't get past the obvious

and what OBVIOUS might that be? Oh that one is japanese and the other is chinese and they have different methods of movement? or that Bagua incorporates more striking and kicking whereas Aikido imploys none, well almost none?
Look i am not blind to the differences i have studied both systems for christ sake, but i CAN see the similarities with respect to the seize and control methods of Bagua as well as Aikido, aikijutsu etc. IN form they look different, in application of techniques how can you NOT see the similarities? Im not saying that aikido has its roots founded in bagua, i am stating that there are similarities which gives rise to questions about it.

All this being said, Aikido is pretty much LARP'ing at it's finest. Last year in black belt magazine there was an interview with the direct inheritor of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu.... his honestly and directness was astounding, he was up front about how the grandmaster taught people incorrectly ON PURPOSE, taught made up crap to most and kept the real system among a very close circle of which Ueyshiba was NOT part.


I would contend that this very statement is BS at its core.
Ueshiba first trained in tokyo in the early 1900's in Jujutsu and Kenjutsu(school unknown) He then enlisted in the Army at Osaka when the Russo-japanese war broke out and he served his time. he Then attended Masakatsu Nakai's Dojo in Sakai where he learned the Goto school of Yagyu ryu jujutsu. Morihei THEN trained under Kiyoichi Takagi and learned the Kodokan Style of Judo. Ueshiba also studied with a renown master of Daito ryu jujutsu, Sokaku Takeda and gained his certificate in daito ryo jujutsu. He also attained his certificate from the goto school. Sometime shortly thereafter he started his OWN dojo and named it the Ueshiba academy 1920's.


Peace,TWS

[lkfmdc]

oh no, challenged by Shaolin-Do all over again....

We will never really know what Ueshiba Morehai took away from his time in Mongolia and Manchuria.

1. learn to use the quote function, so we MIGHT take you at least a little seriously...

2. What did he take away? Judging upon documents of Japanese behavior during the occupation, he probably stole some artwork, a few valuable hides and left with what might be considered a record as a war criminal

That aside......

You got to love the KF board, one minute they insist you need years of dedication to learn CMA correctly, then they insist you can pick up something in a few months

Maybe he learned some things. i like to think that MAYBE he did,

well, as long as you'd like to believe it, it MUST be true

Here is an Excerpt from one of the books i own that tells of his journey i am referring to. NOTE: this is retold by his SON Kisshomaru Ueshiba: Book titled BUDO Teachings of the founder of Aikido with introduction by Kisshomaru Ueshiba.

Well, if it was in a book, it must be true! I mean, published by an academic institution it must have gone through peer review and fact checking.... or maybe it was, like 99% of martial arts books, just published

whereas Aikido imploys none, well almost none?

your complete and total lack of any significant research into this is showing

Look into PRE WAR as opposed to post war....

I would contend that this very statement is BS at its core.

you can get your underwear into an oragami knot for all I care, it's still true whether you like it or not

Have you even read the interview RE Sokaku Takeda?

Do you know he had to PAY for every technique he learned?

THis is TOO funny

[Jeong]

What techniques are in Akido that are not seen in Chinese Chin Na?

Of the techniques that are the same, what is the difference in usage?

Chin na and Aikido are of course arts with many variations and methods of practice, so take my thoughts here only as representative of the Chin Na that *I* practice and the Aikido that I've seen.

Seems to me like Aikido has a gentler intent to it. The idea is *not* to hurt your opponent. The result of this is that the circles used for redirection are quite large and the whole body moves a lot. The techniques are big motions. Chin na on the other hand it's about sparing your opponent, it's about taking control and subduing them. The techniques might utilize the same principles, and of course often do, but they've been streamlined to make them quicker to get into. The circles are smaller and faster, designed to get as quickly as possible to the point; the lock.

Additionally I've never really seen Aikido practice snapping energy into the lock. Aikido from what I've seen enforces a lock for the purpose of either tossing them away or making them give up. Chin na on the other hand (no pun intended) practices for the intent of using the technique for maximum effectiveness. This includes using the same type of energy we use for a strike; the consequence here is that we rip & tear the ligaments, disabling the person entirely.

The last difference I can think of right now is that Chin na is integrated into other kung fu skills often. In other words the idea is not to just use a lock, but use it to subdue the opponent temporarily while you strike at vital points and end the conflict. You mix punching & kicking with grappling.

[Bruce W Sims]

Er, the Willow Sword, I think! I'm being flippant if anything, but I haven't offered you any anger.

Look at your first statement: you say something is simple yet it may be beyond others' understanding... Do you not realise how pompous that makes you seem? Well worthy of some flippancy I feel!

Again, I posit that you are presenting yourself as an authority.

Is that 'hwa' Chinese btw? It's no standard Japanese transliteration of 和 that I'm aware of, if that's what you're talking about. And why don't you just use the word 'harmony' which is a reasonably direct translation, no? More attempts to confuse and present yourself as an authority perhaps (NB: more flippancy, still no anger! )?

E-budo is a reasonable board but one whose members have a tendency to over-theorize and over-analyze... Some people may mistake plain speakers with those incapable of having an intellectual conversation. Some people may get bored of theoreticians but appreciate plain English.

Sure, sounds good, could you direct me to a couple please?

For now I'm inclined to go with your statement that there are too many overlapping areas between arts... so that in fact any simplified division between 'Newtonian' arts and 'Neuro-muscular' arts are facetious at best, and time-wasting speciousness at worst. I'm more than willing to look at anything you point me to, and maybe (!) even change my mind!


Thank you for your time sir, and best wishes to you too.

Maybe, its better if we just tie this off. I want to hear what you are saying with a "positive internal voice" but I still hear anger and unless I miss my guess this exchange is not going to turn-out well.

As far as your questions you are certainly entitled to information.

1.) The reference to something being simple stands on its own. Comparisons in and among the arts under discussion can be found all over the INTERNET. However, just because there are a lot of comparisons and just because the comparisons are simple does not mean they are easily understood. Expressing concepts in terms of one another and in terms of opposing views is practically an art-form in itself. As the example of "hwa" demonstrates conveniently.

2.) Within the context of Korean culture the "Hwa" of a community carries a variety of nuances. Certainly "harmony" is one such interpretation. However, so are "balance", "quiessence" and "order". The purpose of KMA is to re-establish the "Hwa", or, as is characterized in modern parlance "stop the fight". Since the Koreans are arguably "more Confucian that the Confucians" the interpretation for "Hwa" along the lines of "order" may be most accurate. For myself I tend to represent it as "the quiet which proceeds from order", but that's just me. As always, YMMV.

3.) It has never served me well to represent myself as an "authority". Thirty years, four books, two degrees and BB in two arts and I still find that my friends don't require it of me and my antagonists are no closer to regarding it in me. Whats a guy to do, right?

4.) Lastly, there are the resources. If it were me wanting to approach this target I would start on the Aikido side.

I would begin with a sound overview: AIKIDO and the Dynamic Sphere Ratti and Westbrook

I would then augment this with either Saito's fine 6 volume set or settle for Shioda's Dynamic Aikido. Having done this is where things will get fun.

Go to Stanley Pranin's DAITO-RYU Aikijujutsu for its interviews with the historic figures of the Aiki arts and then grab a copy of DAITO-RYU Aikijujutsu- Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo by KONDO Katsuyuki.

OK--- up to this point you have established a decent education in what Aikido is about.

Now, for a comparitive study begin, once again with the general writing. I suggest
starting with Chow's KUNG FU (See: Chap 5) and moving to Practical CHIN NA by ZHAO Da Yuan and finishing with either of YANG Jwing-mings fine books Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na or/and Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na

Lastly, for the inter-relationship among YU SOOL, HAPKIYUSOOL and HAPKISOOL you may want to consider HAPKIDO by KIMM He-young. But if your interest is in only furthering your studies within the parameters of this discussion then I would avail myself of Omiya's The Hidden Roots of Aikido. Not a little controversial, it is probably one of the best treatments of the progression from ju-jutsu to aiki-jujutsu to aiki-jutsu around.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[sanjuro_ronin]

Seems to me like Aikido has a gentler intent to it. The idea is *not* to hurt your opponent.

Judo is a "gentle art" too....

[The Willow Sword]

Well, if it was in a book, it must be true! I mean, published by an academic institution it must have gone through peer review and fact checking.... or maybe it was, like 99% of martial arts books, just published


well gee uhh i jinda like to think that a book written by his OWN SON would be pretty accurate. But i guess i am being too idealistic then right?

oh and about the "being challenged by Sd all over again" comment. Newsflash, i havent been a part of them for years now and do not share their view on things.

i will use the QUOTE function whenever i feel like it. for now i am using the BOLD function to post your statements. maybe i do this because i really do not deem your statements QUOTE worthy

TWS

[lkfmdc]

i kinda like to think that a book written by his OWN SON would be pretty accurate.

or blantantly biased...

I'm gonna take it, from the fact you didn't adress the issues, that you don't have much to say in regards to the rest

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have seen good aikido,but mostly bad aikido, by bad I mean impractical.

Aikido is not a "beginner art" in my view, but is great for someone coming in as a BB in judo for example.

I think that Aikido can very easily be made practical, like most MA that are not, but it does take quite a commitment on the part of those doing so, Aikido can be very har don the body when done realistically.

[lkfmdc]

I think that Aikido can very easily be made practical

EVERYTHING can be made practical, just practice it with "liveness" in realistic conditions with resisting partners.... the rub is that when you do a lot of the distinctly "aikido" looking stuff will disappear, it will start looking like wrestling and Judo....

Last time we had an Aikido thread, I mention how in post war Japan an American photographer with no training had said that Aikido looked ridiculous in front of Ueyshiba and his senior student, the senior student tried to fight the American. He couldn't pull off any of the standard aikido moves and ended up jumping on the American's back and choking him