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Thread: "Average" MMA

  1. #1

    "Average" MMA

    There has been lots of talk of MMA people. Some camps point to the domination of MMA venues. Granted, traditional martial arts haven't done well, with some very limited exceptions. My thought is that the reason of dominance, at least in one part is because you have a different grade of fighter that competes in these events and learns MMA from those who study more traditional arts. MMA guys are typically alpha males that like aggression. Many of these guys are happy to trade punches and go toe to toe, and some just use MMA as a means for aggression. Though there are others like Royce who are in a different camp and show the beauty, sophistication, and technical command he has in his art.

    A recent post/video clip illustrated a point that the average mma person may not be so indestructible as some people suggest. I am not likely to fight or encounter someone of the likes of Gracie (any of them), Lidell, or any of the people that typically fight in pro venues. The average MMa person doesn't have those level of skills, but no doubt they do have valid skills. My personal goal is to be able to handle myself against someone of comparable training in MMA skills against mine. I would expect to be able to deal with what he offers. Perhaps I win, perhaps I lose, but I shouldn't be dismantled at will.

    Success in my mind comes from having a very stable foundation. In all the fighting arts I learned (where experienced sport fighters taught), the topic was always the same, have a small skill set you master and rely on those. Don't get fancy or try something you haven't nailed. I think many of the martial arts demos I have seen fails because of this. I see people not having a strong foundation and relying of less that stellar skills. I think the beauty of MMA is that it forces us to be honest and have to bring those skills up to the proper level. My own recent sparring sessions seemed to credit this idea. When I failed in performing my wing chun properly, my execution suffered greatly and I was constantly off balance and played defense. When I happened to stick to what I was capable of doing and ensure that I was doing it properly, the outcome was much more favorable. And in fact, I could see why certain training aspects were vital where I used to take them for granted.

    anyways...

    So my question is has anyone else gone up against average MMA guys and what was the result? Does anyone have any intention on working with MMA guys? And how do you deal with them? Do you treat them differently, or treat them as any fighter?
    I've only just discovered my error, and I'm going to have to replay whole sections of my life through my mind to see what confusions I may have caused or fallen foul of.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by southernkf View Post
    There has been lots of talk of MMA people. Some camps point to the domination of MMA venues. Granted, traditional martial arts haven't done well, with some very limited exceptions. My thought is that the reason of dominance, at least in one part is because you have a different grade of fighter that competes in these events and learns MMA from those who study more traditional arts. MMA guys are typically alpha males that like aggression. Many of these guys are happy to trade punches and go toe to toe, and some just use MMA as a means for aggression. Though there are others like Royce who are in a different camp and show the beauty, sophistication, and technical command he has in his art.

    A recent post/video clip illustrated a point that the average mma person may not be so indestructible as some people suggest. I am not likely to fight or encounter someone of the likes of Gracie (any of them), Lidell, or any of the people that typically fight in pro venues. The average MMa person doesn't have those level of skills, but no doubt they do have valid skills. My personal goal is to be able to handle myself against someone of comparable training in MMA skills against mine. I would expect to be able to deal with what he offers. Perhaps I win, perhaps I lose, but I shouldn't be dismantled at will.

    Success in my mind comes from having a very stable foundation. In all the fighting arts I learned (where experienced sport fighters taught), the topic was always the same, have a small skill set you master and rely on those. Don't get fancy or try something you haven't nailed. I think many of the martial arts demos I have seen fails because of this. I see people not having a strong foundation and relying of less that stellar skills. I think the beauty of MMA is that it forces us to be honest and have to bring those skills up to the proper level. My own recent sparring sessions seemed to credit this idea. When I failed in performing my wing chun properly, my execution suffered greatly and I was constantly off balance and played defense. When I happened to stick to what I was capable of doing and ensure that I was doing it properly, the outcome was much more favorable. And in fact, I could see why certain training aspects were vital where I used to take them for granted.

    anyways...

    So my question is has anyone else gone up against average MMA guys and what was the result? Does anyone have any intention on working with MMA guys? And how do you deal with them? Do you treat them differently, or treat them as any fighter?
    MMA fighters are just like boxers, Muay Thai fighters, judoka's ( ok, not as cool as judokas but who is?) and any other types that like hard contact fighting.
    They are no less violent or no more, though they seem to like tatoos a lot...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    MMA fighters are just like boxers
    IME a very different 'type'.. A boxer won't shoot...
    Jim Hawkins
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    IME a very different 'type'.. A boxer won't shoot...
    LOL

    Chi blasts at 20 paces !
    Psalms 144:1
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    LOL

    Chi blasts at 20 paces !
    Not sure what that means..

    My point was that when dealing with the MMA type, unlike most other types you have to worry (and train) to deal with, someone who can potentially shoot very well and take it to the ground..

    Some folks think that their standard WCK training is enough for this, meaning without working with those who do it and do it well--a mistake IMO..
    Jim Hawkins
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    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

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    MMA are fighters like any other fighters, the fact that they use certain tools is irrelevant to the "make up" of them as fighters.

    so this part:

    My thought is that the reason of dominance, at least in one part is because you have a different grade of fighter that competes in these events and learns MMA from those who study more traditional arts. MMA guys are typically alpha males that like aggression. Many of these guys are happy to trade punches and go toe to toe, and some just use MMA as a means for aggression.
    Is a gross generalization.
    Psalms 144:1
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    MMA are fighters like any other fighters, the fact that they use certain tools is irrelevant to the "make up" of them as fighters.
    I think there is some truth in what I read into some of those comments..

    Meaning that those who want to fight go to places where they WILL FIGHT.. Many TMAists, IMO DON'T WANT TO FIGHT. So they spend their time doing other things, and some of those things, drills and so on are great if done correctly, but they ALSO need to fight or spar at some level to reap real benefits..

    Moreover, a guy who decides—I want to fight in MMA—in all likelihood, won't be shopping around for WCK schools or Aikido schools, or any other TMA for the most part, they'll be looking to train at MMA clubs... So, I think when you look at those in TMA vs MMA schools, you will see a very different mindset and reason for training. Of course, as with any generalization, mileage will vary..
    Jim Hawkins
    M Y V T K F
    "You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu

  8. #8
    Wow, for a minute I though we needed to dispense ritalin. Glad we are back on topic.

    My point sure is a gross over simplification. But that is always the issue when talking with MMA vs any traditional styles. Though, people that tend to do MMA are more aggressive males, especially those that make it to the pro events. Many of the traditional Kung Fu people I have encountered fall into the category that they like to study martial arts. Few enjoy fighting, but they are not the majority. But what I think is we need to compare apples to apples and not compare MMA people who enjoy fighting with those in Kung Fu that don't. Not a good comparison. Compare similarly skilled people and see what they do. And I agree that it is not just an attribute of MMA. Boxers also tend to be aggressive fighters, as do Muy Thai people. In fact, any group that does full contact fighting tends to be in this category.

    But any ways, this is a very small part of my post and not really relvant. What about the core of the topic of fighting average MMA people? Do we deal with them specially or as any other art? Who has worked with MMa people and what were their experiences? What did they find were their short commings when dealing with these people? Did you have tattoo envy? Did you learn anything about your art in the process?
    I've only just discovered my error, and I'm going to have to replay whole sections of my life through my mind to see what confusions I may have caused or fallen foul of.
    --Douglas Adams

  9. #9
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    Instead of asking a bunch of Wing Chun guys about MMA students, why not go to the source? If you want to find out about France, do you ask a bunch of untravelled Americans or do you speak to people that have lived there? You seem to want reinforcement of your preconceived ideas rather than finding out what actually happens.

    Sorry if I sound like Terence "Tourette's" Niehoff...

    The MMA class I attend is mostly young males, but there are some older guys, some over 50, who AFAIK have no intention of ever fighting in a ring, and some females. IMO the crosssection is not dissimilar to what you'd find at a WC school. The proportion of "Alpha males who like fighting," is IMO about the same. But this class is aimed at self-defense as well as sportfighting.

    I mainly went there because it was on before the advanced BJJ class to start with (either that or twiddle my thumbs for 75 minutes); but I found they did a lot of clinch stuff which was useful both in BJJ and as an adjunct to my punch/kick game, as was their approach to striking on the ground, using the wall/cage, etc.. Now I really enjoy this class.

    As "an MMA student", if I were lucky enough to determine someone was good at pugilism but had no groundfighting experience, I'd do my best to put them on the floor ASAP. Probably clinching to smother their striking opportunities as a prelude.

    That's probably the main thing most of those guys would try to do to a WC guy in a sparring match. Figuring, most of the time correctly IMO, that the wc guy's skills would be of limited value there unless they had supplemented them with something else.

    If uncertain in a fight, you'd go for the quick KO ASAP so as not to get entangled with someone of an unknown skill level (maybe much better than you).

    As a member of a WC school who has students who fight MMA reasonably regularly, I would suggest you try very hard to keep it standing. A couple of the guys lost fights when they were easily out-kickboxing the guy but then decided they needed to do a takedown because, well, it's MMA and you're supposed to - and then eventually got choked out.
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    This thread makes 'the MMA' out to be some rare beast... like a mountain gorilla or something. They're just people. Some of them have crap fighting skills, but they're not the ones who are going to cause fights, challenge TMAers at random or get on UFC and everybody's TVs.

    I've trained MMA at an MMA gym and used my wing chun, my aikido, and the skills that I picked up there from boxing, Thai, wrestling and JJ. It's no big deal. The only people who make it out to be are traditionalists with vested interests.


    Remember one more thing: for every winner in an MMA bout, there's a loser.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    IMO the crosssection is not dissimilar to what you'd find at a WC school. The proportion of "Alpha males who like fighting," is IMO about the same. .

    well according to the guys at Bullshido WC'ers tend to be skinny nerds

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    LOL

    Chi blasts at 20 paces !

    Try not to post that kind of nonsense. Keep on the topic

  13. #13
    "well according to the guys at Bullshido WC'ers tend to be skinny nerds."


    ***Big deal. They're trying to sell tickets to their B U L L show.

    What else would you expect them to say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by southernkf View Post
    Wow, for a minute I though we needed to dispense ritalin. Glad we are back on topic.

    My point sure is a gross over simplification. But that is always the issue when talking with MMA vs any traditional styles. Though, people that tend to do MMA are more aggressive males, especially those that make it to the pro events. Many of the traditional Kung Fu people I have encountered fall into the category that they like to study martial arts. Few enjoy fighting, but they are not the majority. But what I think is we need to compare apples to apples and not compare MMA people who enjoy fighting with those in Kung Fu that don't. Not a good comparison. Compare similarly skilled people and see what they do. And I agree that it is not just an attribute of MMA. Boxers also tend to be aggressive fighters, as do Muy Thai people. In fact, any group that does full contact fighting tends to be in this category.

    But any ways, this is a very small part of my post and not really relvant. What about the core of the topic of fighting average MMA people? Do we deal with them specially or as any other art? Who has worked with MMa people and what were their experiences? What did they find were their short commings when dealing with these people? Did you have tattoo envy? Did you learn anything about your art in the process?
    Mmmm, Ritalin...Where's Tom Cruise?

    Fighters are fighters, they have the same mentaility, the same "ego", regardless of what "techniques" they use.
    MMA fighters are no different than boxers or MT fighters or whatever.
    I came into MMA from Boxing, fromMT from Kyokushin and judo and I saw no difference in the people in a MMA gym than those I had trained before.
    Hard working, dedicated and scrappers.
    Sure there seems to be a certain "look" to MMA types, appearence wise, but that is a statement of "fashion" not mentality.
    There is no MMA VS TMA mentality in the gym, it is only here, on the net, that it is present.
    I remember when I was asked what my MA experience was and I said Kyokushin and judo, the MMA guys didn't say, "oh, those are TMA, they suck", they said, "nice styles, kyokushin is hardcore".

    Fighters respect fighters, the respect contact, so maybe that is the difference.

    As for average MMA, they fall into that category too, the respect contact.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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    TMA and MMA are apples and oranges, two entirely different things predicated on two different views or mindsets and two different ways of training.

    MMA, in the modern sense, came about (evolved) because fighters realized from fighting other good fighters that they needed to be competant in all "phases" of empty-hand fighting, stand-up, clinch, ground, to stand much of a chance against someone who was well-rounded in their game. And so MMA fighters looked to those functional arts that had proved very successful in stand-up (kickboxing, boxing, MT, etc.), clinch (MT, judo, wrestling, etc.), and ground (BJJ, sambo, wrestling, etc.). As they are competitive athletes, they train to compete -- which means they want their training to work, and work against other really good athletes. So they use functional training methods, work with the best people they can find, constantly look to improve their training, etc.

    TMA, on the other hand, has not proved to be very successful in fighting (just in telling stories about how successful they are). The traditional method of training relies mostly on unrealsitic (nonfunctional) exercises, relies on theory of how fighting "should" be, resists change, and is taught almost exclusively by people who can't make their arts work (do the things they train to do as they train to do them) in fighting to any significant degree.

    In other words, MMAists are people who really fight and train to fight whereas TMAists are people who don't really fight (at least not with anyone good or to any significant degree) and don't train to fight. MMA is reality-based and TMAs are fantasy-based.

    IME MMAists appreciate what fighting is and what it takes to train to develop good fighting skills, and so look at any so-called martial art that is not doing that as essentially BS.

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