"Average" MMA

[Tom Kagan]

A recent post/video clip illustrated a point that the average mma person may not be so indestructible as some people suggest.

Which video?

[MisterNoobie]

In other words, MMAists are people who really fight and train to fight whereas TMAists are people who don't really fight (at least not with anyone good or to any significant degree) and don't train to fight. MMA is reality-based and TMAs are fantasy-based.

I suppose i and a few others I train (in an mma school) with are the exception to this. I train bjj right after doing years of tma's now because its fun, and keeps me in shape. I'm just you're average joe with no streak of badass in me. Others that have started training at the same time as me are in a similar situation. Professionals that need to stay in shape, that like watching mma etc.

There are hardcore guys at the school that train way more seriously and are gifted athletes. But the demographic is certainly mixed. Some of these guys would kick my ass with no training at all.

Not even a few miles away is a wing chun school that i trained at briefly. When i trained there i saw a similar demographic.

And based on my observation, the hardcore guys at both schools are tough SOB's that could kick my ass regardless of what 'style' i did.

I'll even go so far as to say that some of the hardcore wing chun guys would seriously hurt some of the hardcore mma guys in a street fight. Would the wing chun guys beat up randy couture? Of course not. But hardcore weekend warrior mma'er vs hardcore wing chunner is a different scenario than the world's top athletes competing for big prize money.

I find it amusing when people point to other stylists getting beat by 'mma' as evidence that mma is more effective. 'Wing chun lost in the octogon therefore wing chun sux kinda attitude. Hasnt BJJ, boxing, muy thai all lost in mma matches as well? Would keith hackney have somehow beat royce gracie if he only studied bjj instead of kempo in UFC 2?

[sanjuro_ronin]

TMA and MMA are apples and oranges, two entirely different things predicated on two different views or mindsets and two different ways of training.

MMA, in the modern sense, came about (evolved) because fighters realized from fighting other good fighters that they needed to be competant in all "phases" of empty-hand fighting, stand-up, clinch, ground, to stand much of a chance against someone who was well-rounded in their game. And so MMA fighters looked to those functional arts that had proved very successful in stand-up (kickboxing, boxing, MT, etc.), clinch (MT, judo, wrestling, etc.), and ground (BJJ, sambo, wrestling, etc.). As they are competitive athletes, they train to compete -- which means they want their training to work, and work against other really good athletes. So they use functional training methods, work with the best people they can find, constantly look to improve their training, etc.

TMA, on the other hand, has not proved to be very successful in fighting (just in telling stories about how successful they are). The traditional method of training relies mostly on unrealsitic (nonfunctional) exercises, relies on theory of how fighting "should" be, resists change, and is taught almost exclusively by people who can't make their arts work (do the things they train to do as they train to do them) in fighting to any significant degree.

In other words, MMAists are people who really fight and train to fight whereas TMAists are people who don't really fight (at least not with anyone good or to any significant degree) and don't train to fight. MMA is reality-based and TMAs are fantasy-based.

IME MMAists appreciate what fighting is and what it takes to train to develop good fighting skills, and so look at any so-called martial art that is not doing that as essentially BS.

Your bashing of TMA is just as bad as the bashing of MMA by some TMA.

Boxing, judo, MT, kyokushin, for example are all proven arts and all TMA.
You keep forgetting that.

Pehaps refering to the systems you have issues with as Non-combat systems or non-fighting systems would be better.

I am a TMA and I trained in TMA and I take offense to what you say.

[t_niehoff]

Your bashing of TMA is just as bad as the bashing of MMA by some TMA.

Boxing, judo, MT, kyokushin, for example are all proven arts and all TMA.
You keep forgetting that.

Pehaps refering to the systems you have issues with as Non-combat systems or non-fighting systems would be better.

I am a TMA and I trained in TMA and I take offense to what you say.

Boxing, judo, MT are not TMAs. They don't have the traditional mindset (but are based on and guided by actual performance results) and they use modern functional training methods.

I am not bashing TMAs, I'm merely telling it as it is. TMAs by their very nature can't develop much in the way of fighting skills. That nature is the traditional mindset and the focus on unrealistic training (which go hand-in-hand and reinforce each other).

If you take a TMA and remove the traditional mindset and change to the modern, functional training model, it will no longer be a TMA. This is what Kano did -- took TMAs in the form of TJJ and by changing those traditional elements, created judo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing, judo, MT are not TMAs. They don't have the traditional mindset (but are based on and guided by actual performance results) and they use modern functional training methods.

Really?
What Traditional mindset is that?
The traditional mindset of "one shot, one kill", to understate the importance of making every shot count and the seriousness of being able to avoid and shot?
The mindset of "the more you bleed in training, the less in combat" ?
The mindset of "only by testing under fire our skills can we be sure of them"?

All views I have learned in TMA.

Again, I think you have a very narrow view of what YOU think are TMA.
You should realise that others have had very different experiences.

[southernkf]

Hey guys,

There are enough threads talking about the lack of skills of TMA, Wing CHun, etc. I hoped to drive discussion towards those that worked with MMA people and how that experienced worked (or didn't). Did they gain any knowledge about their wing chun from it, or knowledge about fighting in general. Not interested in people that havn't done it or people who think it can't be done.

Every time I spar I find out new things. I tend to appreciate the things I learned prior to sparring. I can see how easily I don't adhear to the skills I train, but I also see the ill effects of not adhearing to those skills. I do much better. Sparring at the level I am currently doing it is allowing me to better understand my wing chun. I have yet to work with MMA people, but I plan to change that shortly. My goal isn't to out perform them, but to see how I act and what mistakes I make. Hence my question. How have others experiences worked for them?

[Anthony_ATT]

Which video?

Did he ever post what video he's talking about?

[t_niehoff]

Really?
What Traditional mindset is that?
The traditional mindset of "one shot, one kill", to understate the importance of making every shot count and the seriousness of being able to avoid and shot?
The mindset of "the more you bleed in training, the less in combat" ?
The mindset of "only by testing under fire our skills can we be sure of them"?

All views I have learned in TMA.

Again, I think you have a very narrow view of what YOU think are TMA.
You should realise that others have had very different experiences.

The evidence of the results of TMA fighters speaks for itself. Those people who trained with one shot, one kill, who bled more in training, who tested their skills under fire, haven't seen to achieve any significant results, have they? Where are all the good TMA fighters? On Fantasy Island.

The traditional mindset is view of martial arts not based on actual fighting, and quality results or evidence pertaiing to fighting, but is characterized by being backward-looking (those Shaolin Monks or the ancestors really knew, they had the magic book), theory-based (I konw the concepts/principles of fighting, the contents of teh magic book), authority-centered (do not question the grandmaster, the holder of the magic book), that seeks to preserve itself (the magic book must be preserved) and places the tradition above the individual (you must do what the magic book says).

I'm sure you learned lots of "views" in the TMAs (if anything, they talk a good game), you just won't develop much in the way of fighting skills in the TMAs. And that's because of the nature of traditional training is unrealistic (not alive) exercises.

[southernkf]

No I didn't. That is not relevant to the discussion really and I have a hard time finding it since that thread was so active and it is buried.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The evidence of the results of TMA fighters speaks for itself. Those people who trained with one shot, one kill, who bled more in training, who tested their skills under fire, haven't seen to achieve any significant results, have they? Where are all the good TMA fighters? On Fantasy Island.

The traditional mindset is view of martial arts not based on actual fighting, and quality results or evidence pertaiing to fighting, but is characterized by being backward-looking (those Shaolin Monks or the ancestors really knew, they had the magic book), theory-based (I konw the concepts/principles of fighting, the contents of teh magic book), authority-centered (do not question the grandmaster, the holder of the magic book), that seeks to preserve itself (the magic book must be preserved) and places the tradition above the individual (you must do what the magic book says).

I'm sure you learned lots of "views" in the TMAs (if anything, they talk a good game), you just won't develop much in the way of fighting skills in the TMAs. And that's because of the nature of traditional training is unrealistic (not alive) exercises.

I think you have had some horrific experiences with TMA, I feel for you.
Some of us have had nothing but good ones, well, most of them have been good LOL !
As for good TMA, guys like Andy Hug and Filho, all those Judokas and Thai fighters out there, yeah, where are they....

[anerlich]

I think southernkf may have been referring to Bullshido's "MMA sucks" video.

Why waste your time arguing with Terence? You aren't going to change his mind, and if you have any sense at all he's not going to change yours. Ignore his posts, they're pretty much all identical anyway.

[Liddel]

T just believes you cant have a TMA that has more modern approaches to fighting. He generalises believing that if a style is referred to as a TMA.....
its exactly that, traditional
- something unchanged since inception centuries ago.

Which is a case of style using you, not you using the style... the very thing ive been taught not to do.

Moreover he thinks that if you blend traditional stuff with modern stuff you are still stuck in the dark ages - they dont lend skills to one another.

In this regard I believe hes only talking about one particular part of a whole community (although his generalisations seem aimed at the community as a whole)

Which there in, lies the hump. His ramblings are misplaced - they should be left in the comments of those less than average youtube videos he seems to think represent any and all people that lable themselves with the same style.

He's a product of his own experiences which obviously were so bad he feels he needs to save others from the same ill fate.
Why else would he do what he does here, on a VT forum - day in day out ?

Its a catch 22 with this guy.

A more modern approach is need.
Im aware and changing the method while keeping the style.
No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

Rinse repeat....

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

TROLL.

DREW

[YungChun]

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods.

You left out a couple of variants..

The If it works it's not real WCK.. (T)

The If it works it's in spite of the other training. (D)

The If it works it's because the other guy was little.. (D)

Hmmmm...

What others can we think of?

[YungChun]

Which video?

That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2288188

[Anthony_ATT]

That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2288188

Those were awesome videos. One day I'd like to spar with someone like that.

Friendly, and learning from each other.