"Average" MMA

[Matrix]

Those were awesome videos. One day I'd like to spar with someone like that.

Friendly, and learning from each other.

Anthony,
You've touched on a very important truth here. You can learn alot during a friendly exchange with someone. It allows you to work on your skills, timing, footwork etc. I truely hope that you get to "spar" like that from time to time.

Bill

[Knifefighter]

That would be these: (inferior vs superior systems)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2237585
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...ideoID=2288188

Or did you mean these clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcr67dmiaDI

[jesper]

Wow out of 6½ min of vid, it shows 15 seconds against a WC practicisioner and still feel the need to specificly mention that style in the headline

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anthony,
You've touched on a very important truth here. You can learn alot during a friendly exchange with someone. It allows you to work on your skills, timing, footwork etc. I truely hope that you get to "spar" like that from time to time.

Bill

friendly exchanges are great when both parties truly understand that they are going light contact and as such, especially in regards to striking, the results are quite irrelevant.
In any match up where striking is involved, hard contact ( if not full) must be done or it will have ZERO effect on the outcome UNLESS the person receiving the strikes is "honest" enough to react to them.
Then again, it hard to react to "slaps" and we go back to the same problem.

Light contact is great for grappling, not so much for striking or MMA.

[t_niehoff]

friendly exchanges are great when both parties truly understand that they are going light contact and as such, especially in regards to striking, the results are quite irrelevant.
In any match up where striking is involved, hard contact ( if not full) must be done or it will have ZERO effect on the outcome UNLESS the person receiving the strikes is "honest" enough to react to them.
Then again, it hard to react to "slaps" and we go back to the same problem.

Light contact is great for grappling, not so much for striking or MMA.

The real problem IME when going at a lower intensity is maintaining the realism, to behave, act, respond, etc. as you really would while going 100%. People who don't spend much time really sparring/fighting at 100% often believe what they are doing will work at 100% (theory) and that all they will need to do is bump up the intensity should they ever need to. This is not the case. Going at intensity (100%) limits a great deal those things we can really do, how we can act, react, behave, etc. There are all kinds of ways to walk funny but if you run full-out (sprint), you'll find your body can only move in one way.

So you need to begin in your training with that understanding. Much of the stuff people commonly train in WCK just won't work at intensity. They beleive it will, but if they put it in the pressure-cooker, they would see they can't really do it. So to continue to practice that way of moving is essentially a waste of time: you're practicing to do something you never will be able to do. Which means you are training to fail.

As I said, you need to begin your training with an understanding and appreciation of what you can really do at 100%, not in theory, but in reality. This comes only from experience -- your own and your instructor (presuming he knows, which means he can do it atintensity himself). Once you can do it at 100% under realistic conditions (in realistic sparring - more on this below), then and only then can you "lower" the intensity in your training. But you still need to keep going back to full intensity to maintain the check on the realism.

Two other related things:

First, anytime we are not practicing/training at full intensity there is a tendency to let unrealsitic crap creep in to what we are doing. Our bodies naturally try to find the easiest ways to perform. At lower intensities and especially with unrealsitic conditions this means finding ways that may use less movement, energy, etc. and still succeed. But those things won't work at higher intensity under realsitic conditions. It is very easy to trick ourselves. You must keep this in mind and constantly go back to full intensity training to check yourself.

Second, everyone spars. But most sparring is not realistic. It doesn't correspond to the conditions, intensity, actions, etc. of a full-out, 100%, destroy-the-guy fight. Most often it is more like play-fighting. Play fighting won't develop realsitic skills. Only realistic training/sparring builds those skills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You need a balance of hard contact and moderate contact, you can't go "balls to the wall" all the time.
And while light contatc can be usefull when introducing sparring to a rookie, it should be very small part of ones training (if at all) once harder contact has begun.

[t_niehoff]

You need a balance of hard contact and moderate contact, you can't go "balls to the wall" all the time.
And while light contatc can be usefull when introducing sparring to a rookie, it should be very small part of ones training (if at all) once harder contact has begun.

I'm not suggesting (where did you read that I was?) going 100% all of the time. Just regularly. A trainee can reduce the intensity once they know how to move at intensity. Then, they can practice moving as they will really be moving. But they can only know that from moving at intensity first. They need to routinely and regularly go back to full intensity to keep their training (at lower intensity) honest.

[southernkf]

Wow, I give up.

you all ***** at terence, but you all are actually worse at hijacking threads and not discussing topics. This thread went off course prior to Terence and now we are three pages in to the topic with allmost no one commenting on the topic and Terence only making up about 3 -4 posts. Yikes.

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn't matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. But we can't generate usefull discussion, so I'll bail out and you guys can continue on taking this thread where ever it is going. I'll just chime in on various posts from time to time.

[t_niehoff]

Wow, I give up.

you all ***** at terence, but you all are actually worse at hijacking threads and not discussing topics. This thread went off course prior to Terence and now we are three pages in to the topic with allmost no one commenting on the topic and Terence only making up about 3 -4 posts. Yikes.

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn't matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced. But we can't generate usefull discussion, so I'll bail out and you guys can continue on taking this thread where ever it is going. I'll just chime in on various posts from time to time.

You wanted to know:

"how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced?"

Let's rephrase the question: how can boxers develop better skills and learn their art and what others have experienced? How can BJJ people develop better skill and learn their art and what others have experienced?

We, as fighters, must all do it the same way. This isn't rocket science.

The answer is by DOING IT, by going out and training with proven good fighters, sparring with good fighters. If you don't do that, you'll never be a good boxer, a good BJJ fighter or a good WCK fighter or a good MMA fighter. Use the same training process that all proven fighters use and all good open-skill athletes use. That's the answer.

Simple.

Do you think you are going to learn anything from boxers who haven't done that, from BJJ people who haven't done that, from MMA people who haven't done that -- then why believe you can learn anything from WCK people who haven't done that?

[southernkf]

Hi Terence,

I understand what your saying. You have been saying that for a while. I am not interesting in debating the "just do it" mentality. What I am asking is what did those that did it get from it? I have been sparring (not currently with MMA people) and I have found all kinds of interesting things from my experience. So far most of it has validated what I learned.

So, I'll ask you, what has your experience been when training with MMA people? Did it help you understand wing chun any better? Did you find wing chun doesn't work, it works when modified, always works, or something different? I am not so much interested in hearing how bad wing chun sucks. We get that view enough. I am interested in hearing if any one had successful interactions. Not necessarily winning and dominating, but they were able to work out and identify fixable problems in technique, form, implementation, strategy, etc.

[Tom Kagan]

In any case, no it was the bullshido video. But really it doesn't matter what video. My point was how we can develop better skills and learn out art and what others have experienced.

This video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtl1myuoDH0

[t_niehoff]

Hi Terence,

I understand what your saying. You have been saying that for a while. I am not interesting in debating the "just do it" mentality. What I am asking is what did those that did it get from it? I have been sparring (not currently with MMA people) and I have found all kinds of interesting things from my experience. So far most of it has validated what I learned.

The problem with "sparring" is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don't get very good -- which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy.

The most important feature is the quality of the sparring -- the level of intensity, the level of the opponents, the realistic nature, etc. This is why I suggest a good MMA gym, MT school, boxing gym, etc., places where fighters, good fighters, really train.

I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to **** you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself -- go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won't. No one traditionally trained can.

This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I've never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK.

So, I'll ask you, what has your experience been when training with MMA people? Did it help you understand wing chun any better? Did you find wing chun doesn't work, it works when modified, always works, or something different? I am not so much interested in hearing how bad wing chun sucks. We get that view enough. I am interested in hearing if any one had successful interactions. Not necessarily winning and dominating, but they were able to work out and identify fixable problems in technique, form, implementation, strategy, etc.

What I've found is that fighting will "look" (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that's what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won't prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don't pertain to genuine application -- how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application.

If you are interested, you might visit Alan Orr's website and purchase his WCK for NHB videos -- that would be a good start and giveyou some idea of what I am talking about.

[sihing]

The problem with "sparring" is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don't get very good -- which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy.

The most important feature is the quality of the sparring -- the level of intensity, the level of the opponents, the realistic nature, etc. This is why I suggest a good MMA gym, MT school, boxing gym, etc., places where fighters, good fighters, really train.

I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to **** you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself -- go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won't. No one traditionally trained can.

This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I've never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK.



What I've found is that fighting will "look" (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that's what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won't prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don't pertain to genuine application -- how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application.

If you are interested, you might visit Alan Orr's website and purchase his WCK for NHB videos -- that would be a good start and giveyou some idea of what I am talking about.

From Previous Liddel post:
"Its a catch 22 with this guy.

A more modern approach is need. T
Im aware and changing the method while keeping the style. US
No the style doesnt work. T
Ive found it does for me. US
It doesnt work against high level people. T
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down. US
Your sparring low level people. T
They have good skills. US
If it works they must be 5hit ! T
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods. US

Rinse repeat....

No the style doesnt work.
Ive found it does for me.
It doesnt work against high level people.
Im not training for high level, but it still works from there down.
Your sparring low level people.
They have good skills.
If it works they must be 5hit !
It works cause i have added more modern tarining methods."

Thx for the laugh T

James

[southernkf]

The problem with "sparring" is that just about everyone in martial arts spars. And they all think they are doing fairly well. But most of them still don't get very good -- which is easily seen when they spar with someone that is good. Sparring in TMAs is most often done with other poor fighters, doing similar crappy things, not acting realistically, etc. It is more a form of playfighting. And all it does is reinforce the fantasy.

The most important feature is the quality of the sparring ...

I can't help the fact people don't spar correctly. There is different levels of sparring and you should be sparring at a level that challenges you, with different people rather than the same ones who react in similar ways. I agree with what you say, but I don't think it is relevant to the topic. Meaning I can't help it if they aren't doing things the right way. Quality is indeed the important factor. My sparring is not where I want it, but it is good for where I am at. Once I get a handle on it I'll ratchet it up. Hopefully I'll find like minded people and get a larger group to work with. Hopefull it will include MMA as well as others.

I think that if your sparring has validated what you have learned in WCK, then you have not been sparring with good people or sparring realistically. I say that not to **** you off or belittle you but because WCK application does not correspond to the tradtional WCK training. If you don't believe me, go see for yourself -- go visit some place where good (proven) fighters spar and mix it up at 100%, and see if you can do those things you train to do as you have trained to do them. You won't. No one traditionally trained can.

I don't take offense at what your saying and it doesn't **** me off. But I do think it is a bit naive. You feel that wing chun training cannot train you to be a good fighter. I disagree and think there are great skills there. I am not interested in a debate of the utlitmate martial arts. Even if your correct about it not holding up to MMA people, it still holds up in general. But just for the record, the clip between Dale and Rashun did not show MMA domination as you tend to suggest. But to be fair the clips was just a fraction of the whole exchange.

Here is my thought on this topic. Prior to the Gracies, JiuJitsu was not condisdered to be a dominate art. Many people laughed and joked about it. My first wing chun school shared space with JuiJitsu people and our teacher and senior students did not have difficulty holding their own against them. Then came the Gracies (atleast with public noterity). They worked on a classical system and trained very effectivly with it. They modernized it no doubt, but the techniques Royce in particular used are classical techniques are they not? Working with a system in a unrealistic environment is just a false sense of security. Gracie's worked with their system and learned where it worked. They don't seem to me to be denying the Classical JiuJitsu. I havn't really studied much on them, but what little I have shows them training in basic jiu jitsu skills. Not sure why Wing Chun is any different. Wing Chun done the way it is designed to work is valid. I agree that most people don't seem able to pull it off. But that is their problem. My goal is to figure out how it works, and that includes trying it out in class with mutual friends as well in sparring sessions and hopefull some of the open exchanges that occur hear and their with MMA type people.

This is not a WCK sucks diatribe. I've never said WCK sucks. The traditional mindset and training method of TMAs suck. Yes, those are a part of WCK. But we can discard them from our WCK.

OK, I take everything back. LOL. Cool, wing chun doesn't suck. Then with that out of the way I partially agree. I think Uke syndrom runs rampant in most all schools. Some more than others, and some or more honest about it. I think the tradional approach, atleast what I have been exposed to, is a valid approach for teaching the skill portion. You start from a point of no skill and progress in much the same way a Concert Violinist would. You spend years refining your skills prior to playing in the big concert. Prior to that your in recitals that really don't mean much. MMA, and your view is more akin to a blues mucsican that may or may not have technical talent, but plays befors crowds as soon as possible. There different approaches. I think with the tradional approach you do have to go outside the norm and test yourself. And this actually is part of many schools. Yip Man advise people to go test it out, as we often cite and hear. Choy Li Fut schools did the same as did Lam Sai Wing and Lam Jo's Schools. Many others did too. Fighting has been part of traditional schools for a long time. But I feel today martial arts has become a suburbs sport where people arn't interested in fighting. Or atleast the ratio of people interested in fighting is much smaller than those interested in just learning. So you begin to have the phoenomenon you have been banging your drum about for so long. Get out there and test it against good quality people. And if you fail, analyze WHY you failed and see if it was because the arts just sucks or because you didn't utilize the art in the right way? I suspect it often will be the later. But what do I know? I am still figuring it out. LOL

What I've found is that fighting will "look" (feel, etc.) like MMA/NHB regardless of your style or art when you are really hard-pressed (by the intensity and/or skill of the opponent). And that's what you have to prepare for. Your WCK tools need to fit and work in that chaotic, violent mess. Your body/mind has to be prepared and conditioned for that chaotic, violent mess. The traditional training of WCK, the unreaslistic exercises, won't prepare you for that. All it does is make the trainee familiar with the tools/skills of WCK. They don't pertain to genuine application -- how you can really use those tools/skills in fighting. In fact, the range, facing, energy, timing, etc. of all the drills not anything like genuine application.

Finally, some one addressing the hear of the topic. THis is the stuff I wanted. Yeah, that "eye of the tiger" to use a horid phrase of a Rocky movie. Fighting is as much a mind set as it is a skill set. You have to have the heart and drive of a fighter. How many times have you seen a technically good fighter quit in a ring because he lost his desire to fight? It happens. A good punch to the face can sap that out of you. The school itself doesn't teach you that. Some people are born with it (or into it). Others never get it. But I disagree that a school doesn't focus on it. In fact I have heard several people focus on it. Gary Lam has talked about this very thing when discussing the Knives. My line talks at great length about it, especially in regards to Biu Jee. But it permeates the art. We arn't supposed to become slackjawed while chi sauing or looking off to the side. THere is an intensity in what we do. You have to develop that skill. This may only be a portion of what your talking about, but the fighters of wing chun do have it and do address it. This is why I look at much that you have said and I shake my head. Look for those that have the skills. Don't paint us all with the same brush based on Youtube clips and a few bad wing chun showings.

As for Alan Orr, I saw a couple clips, I think on wingchunfightclub.com or something. I wasn't as impressed with what I saw, meaning I wanted to see other stuff. But it seemed good quality stufff for the ring. It is hard to critique it now as I didn't really study it. But I am interested in seeing more from him as well as others. I would love to see more of Rick Spain, who I think has some pretty good skills. I am interested in some of the Gary Lam stuff, though I am not sure if they spar and mix it up with MMA, but I like some of the stuff they do and ideas. All though I am not a fighter by heart, I hope to be able to mix it up and prove to myself if all this time and effort is worth it. Maybe you and others are right in that it just doesn't work. I just have a hard time buying that. LOL. But in any case, I'll look into Orr's stuff.

Despite what others say, I still enjoy talking with you cause you do focus on reality and can think critically about various topics. Not saying your always right, but that you don't drink the coolaid. LOL

[Knifefighter]

Prior to the Gracies, JiuJitsu was not condisdered to be a dominate art. Many people laughed and joked about it. My first wing chun school shared space with JuiJitsu people and our teacher and senior students did not have difficulty holding their own against them. Then came the Gracies (atleast with public noterity). They worked on a classical system and trained very effectivly with it. They modernized it no doubt, but the techniques Royce in particular used are classical techniques are they not? Working with a system in a unrealistic environment is just a false sense of security. Gracie's worked with their system and learned where it worked. They don't seem to me to be denying the Classical JiuJitsu.

BJJ and claissical classical jujutsuhave no affiliation, other than the fact that Kano modified jujutsu into judo which was modified into BJJ by the Brazilians.

BJJ and classical jujutsu might be very distant cousins, but BJJ is no more classical JJ than Sambo is. As a matter of fact Sambo and BJJ are much closer than BJJ and JJ, even though they were developed separately.