Tai Zu Mantis style

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do Mantis people care about this topic much? Just asking.

There are about 4 sources from Shaolin records that show that Wang Lang was from Song dynasty era, early 960s AD.

[B.Tunks]

Sal,

It is interesting. However personally I don't agree with a lot of it. It isn't certain that Wang Lang even existed and if he did, when, where or who he was. No one so far has been able to verify this key piece of your puzzle. Tanglang, although these days quite commonly labelled as having Song origins, almost definitely came at the very latest Ming/early Qing. There may have been something quite independant called Tanglang earlier, but there could be very little if any connection to what we have now that clearly (and traceably) grew out of the Qing. Almost every piece of the earliest written body of Tanglang theory is ripped of from, or heavily influenced by Ming sources (as you know). Virtually the only link to the Song are these Shaolin accounts, which are also unverifiable date-wise, and almost certainly copied several times over by unknown authors. Not to mention the use of fictitional or historically misplaced characters in the ancestors story. It's a great piece of folklore though.

BT

[Three Harmonies]

It has been my experience and understanding that Mr. Tunks is correct. I researched the origin of Mantis quite a bit, until I finally got frustrated spinning my wheels. One must be careful with such topics as we risk inventing, or adding to history when their are key aspects missing. Quite frankly I do not see the importance of any of it anyways. No one will ever have a solid "answer" (kind of like religion), so is there really a point in arguing and debating? Martial histroy is quite interesting, but one should not invest too much into it.
Just my 2 cents,
Jake

[Royal Dragon]

I don't agree, I think it is a good thing to know what really happened if trust worthy records allow for it.

I'd rather find out the truth, even if my dream word is shattered by it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

It is interesting. However personally I don't agree with a lot of it. It isn't certain that Wang Lang even existed and if he did, when, where or who he was. No one so far has been able to verify this key piece of your puzzle. Tanglang, although these days quite commonly labelled as having Song origins, almost definitely came at the very latest Ming/early Qing. There may have been something quite independant called Tanglang earlier, but there could be very little if any connection to what we have now that clearly (and traceably) grew out of the Qing. Almost every piece of the earliest written body of Tanglang theory is ripped of from, or heavily influenced by Ming sources (as you know). Virtually the only link to the Song are these Shaolin accounts, which are also unverifiable date-wise, and almost certainly copied several times over by unknown authors. Not to mention the use of fictitional or historically misplaced characters in the ancestors story. It's a great piece of folklore though.

BT

Well I'm not taking a side in any direction, just looking at what comes up, hopefully one day there will be something more solid to go by.

I'm not sure if there are historically misplaced people in this particular list of masters. There is another Shaolin tradition that hold that there were 13 masters, and if you subtract the honorary people, such as the 3 people from the Water Margin: Yan Qing, Ling Chong, and his nephew (though they are all from Song Dynasty, because they all are linked via being students of legendary Zhou Tong),
and Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin (he was being emperor and wasn't there, though his long fist was the start point) and Han Tong (he was already dead by then, having died defending the previous emperor), - both of whom are indeed from the Song, that then leaves the 13 masters.

It could be that this Song era version of Tang Lang is of course much different than the Ming dynasty Mantis that later evolved. Perhaps it served as inspiration to the Ming dynasty Mantis developers?

It is plausible that someone anti-Qing dynasty took up old Wang Lang's identity and used it to hide from.

Sets from Shaolin that are supposed to be from the early Song dynasty do use mantis hands movements and postures that are also seen in some Shandong mantis sets. There must be a reason that as far as Shaolin is concerned Tang Lang and Song dynasty always get connected together.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, the earliest references to Shaolin from the Mantis lineages come from people like Wang Yongchun and Fan Xudong?

People think that Fan wrote the Mantis version of the Shaolin Authentic?

Was it Lou Guangyu that went to Shaolin and spend some time there researching Tang Lang or was it someone else? I remember reading (english languge) that a famed Mantis master spent time at Shaolin (pre-1920s) researching early mantis and the Luohan Gong.
Is this article available?

[mantis108]

I agreed with Brendan.

I believe the Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu is a literary frabrication using Ming dynasty military manuscripts, Ming period martial arts novels, Shandong hero folk lores, etc. As such, it can not be used to authenticate anything.

some thoughts that I shared before on the Mantis Quarterly forum:

Not necessarily. I think the Shaolin is just a namesake rather than anything substantial in it. Here's some reasons:

1) Shaolin temple became really famous because of a surge in Buddhism during Yuan dynasty. The Emperors edicted to build 7 Shaolin temple through China. Possibly, there are 8 locations altogether including the Henan Songshan Shaolin.

2) One list of 7 Shaolin: Songshan (Henan), Helin (Karakorum, Mongolia), Ji Xian (Hebei), Xi'an (Shan Xi?), Tai Yuan (Shanxi), Luoyang (Henan), Quanzhou (Fujian).

Another list replaced Tai Yuan with Heng zhou, which is either related to or possibly origin of Southern Shaolin Temple. However, it is also believe that Heng zhou didn't quite finish building. So essentially it didn't exist.

3) Fuyu (1201-1275 CE) supervised the building of Helin Shaolin, which is also known as Northern Shaolin. This is possibly the source in which Sheng Xiao Dao Ren imagined it as the Fuju's Shaolin.

4) Sheng Xiao Dao Ren, is likely to be a government run military academy "cadets" during Qing dynasty. Graduates can attend exams to become commissioned officiers. If they fail to get a commission in the military as they aged, they would be reassigned to teaching jobs in different locations. Sheng Xiao did mentioned that he had students in Sheng Jing (modern day Shenyang), which is the capital of the Manchurian territory at the time. It is possible that he had a library that included the Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu, which he developed or edited into another copy out memeroy since one of his student took the copy that he owned. This would explain why there are so many versions of the same book in existence. BTW, the Dao Ren designation during that period is simply someone who is learned and respected not necessarily someone who is a Daoist.

5) Luohan Xinggong Duanda is possibly a version of Xingquan which was used along with Fanziquan and a few other styles in the south during Ming dynasty's time as military training styles. Xingquan and Fanziquan are both classified as Duanda pugilistic styles from the south. The Short strikes 9981 is not meant to be independent form in use. It's meant to be use with the Fanche Lulu Chui6636 IMHO. This is symbolic represention of Yijing's (classic of change) Yao (9 for the Yang Yao, 6 for the Yin Yao). The ancient Kingdom of Qi (Shandong) is considered the inherited home of Yijing. The LHXGDD has a lot of interpretation from the Yijing. BTW, I have found the term "Fanche" (exact charactors) reference in a commentary written by a Qing dynasty scholar arround the same period as Sheng Xiao Dao Ren about an Hexagram that has "Fanche" attribute.

6)The beginning portion of the Lanjie (Luanjie) can be divided into Taiji Pi (vertical split), Hengji Pi (horizontal split), and Wuda Lianhuan Pi (five continuous strikes). This also known as the Meihwa (plum blossom). Basic it's a series of hooks and splits working together.

7) Well, Wang Lang could be the famous Gui Gu Zi (spring-autuum to warring states period), whose name is Wang Ch'an, also known as Wang Xu. Shandong is believed to be Gui Gu Zi's base of operation. Gui Gu Zi is said to be the teacher of Sun Bin, who has a style of Long Fist (Sun Bin Quan) named after him. This style is also popular in Shandong. The white apes series is related to the legend of Sun Bin. BTW, Xiao Hu Yan is said to have came from Sun Bin Quan as well. It would seem that Sun Bin Quan is taught among the Armed Escort trade in the Shandong area especially popular in the Yantai area. Liang Xuexiang and his son, Liang Jingchuan also worked in the Armed Escort trade. This is possibly where the White ape series, Xiao Hu Yan, and Da Xiao Fanche came from in the Greater Meihwa Line IMHO. So again, there might not be any relationship with the Henan Shaolin.

Mantis108

[Qixing Tanglang]

Sal,

I lot of us think it is interesting, and have been there done that type thing. If you like reading about history that is fine, but if you like training a fighting system, then you eventually get to a point diminishing returns, and realize time is better well spent training.

I do not have to know about history to know that there is a huge amount of crossover. Particularly looking at the systems out Shandong, Hebei and Henan. A lot of obvious cross over and similarities. Of course differences too but not that much in my opinion.

I am repeating myself here, but if you really want to compare systems, then forget about sets/forms and history - look to the physical base techniques contained in the Si Ji Fa. But the only way to really know this is to train it. Even then so trying to write about it is limiting.

It sounds to me from what you write that you spend too much time thinking about sets / forms. Interesting, but really a waste of time.

Regards,
Nate

[Sal Canzonieri]

I practice foundamentals, nei gong, and sets each day, from 4 to 6 hours.
Research CMA history is for fun.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I agreed with Brendan.

I believe the Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu is a literary frabrication using Ming dynasty military manuscripts, Ming period martial arts novels, Shandong hero folk lores, etc. As such, it can not be used to authenticate anything.

some thoughts that I shared before on the Mantis Quarterly forum:


Mantis108

Hi;

thanks for responding.

I looked over some of your posts in the Mantis Quarterly. I have some comments.

In here you said: http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum...0&postcount=14

If you permit me to explain some deeper things about Shaolin, maybe it will have bearing on your thoughts on Duan Da and Chang Quan and Mantis style.

In the original Shaolin methods, not the modern crapola wushu junk, Tai Zu Chang Quan means 'long boxing' as in time wise, meaning movements all connected together to make a 'long' flowing set. As opposed to short drills. And, in fact, Shaolin Chang Quan of tai zu variety is considered a Duan Da, a 'short striking' methods, though it is part of Long Boxing school.
Tong Bi of Han Tong's version was from military drills that come from Sword fighting methods. They also can be 'duan da' short strikes.

Most of the people on the 18 masters list are Ba Fan Men stylists, which again is duan da methods, short strikes. And Ba Fan Men (consisting of Ba Fan Shan and Ba Fan Shou) is a type of Luohan Duan da, as opposed to the a Luohan Chang Da that Shaolin normally shows people. Ba Fan Men is called fanzi Quan nowadays.
It is mentioned in General Qi's book along with and a few styles that are also the styles of the 18 masters (Wen Jia Quan, and others).

In Henan Shaolin, Luohan Duan Da = Fanzi Quan = tong bi (which means 'through the arms', not the 'through the back' character that modern bai yuan tong bei uses). As such, Henan Shaolin Luohan Duan Da is related to Han Tong's Tong Bi, not to Hong Dong city's Chang Quan coiling tong bei (which is a *******ized Tai Zu/Chen Tai Ji combination - Hong Dong Tong Bei comes from a member of the Chen clan that returned to their ancestral city and his Chen TJQ was given another name to hide its source).

Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries.

[Redfish]

Sal, you say:

"Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries. "

You've seen pre-900ad Tong Bi Taoist swordfighting and found it to look similar to c.900-1200 ad Shaolin 'Liu He Gong'?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, you say:

"Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries. "

You've seen pre-900ad Tong Bi Taoist swordfighting and found it to look similar to c.900-1200 ad Shaolin 'Liu He Gong'?

ha, I wish. I guess it looks like that, but what I meant was Shaolin says that the material comes from Tong Bi originally, since the martial monks were taught, during the tang and song era by ex-military men.

Also, in having learned tong bei, tong bei sword, Wudang sword, etc., and also these Shaoin sets, I can see for myself that I am doing the exact same movements in the Shaolin nei gong sets as I am doing in these "taoist" sword and empty hand arts. they have the same breathing patterns, same body mechanics, same fundamentals concerning the moving of energy from the ground, up the legs, around the waist, up the spine and out the arms to the hands, they have the same Swing the waist, sink the elbows, pierce (point) with the fingers movements, etc.
There is nothing in these Shaolin sets that I also didn't learn in the fundamentals and various sets of tong bei (white ape, 5 elements, etc) and sword, especially double sword and double knives.

It would give one the impression that these Shaolin sets, which Shaolin considers the oldest and most scared sets, are related to tong bei / sword.

[Redfish]

I gave up on all that.

Modern Shaolin is full of stuff like Steles with simplified characters and monks who claim to have been there for ever despite the temple having been abandoned in the Warlords period after 1912 and being deserted right up until 1982 after the Jet Li movie's success prompted the government to redevelop it.

All the other sources are mainly folkore as well.

After reading the stories and the pre-WW2 histories I get the idea that when Fan Xudong made his trip out to the Henan temple it was already a kind of 'trip' to a historical site and not an active martial arts centre.

That's my own speculation of course. All makes for nice conversation over food after training.

RF

[Sal Canzonieri]

I gave up on all that.

Modern Shaolin is full of stuff like Steles with simplified characters and monks who claim to have been there for ever despite the temple having been abandoned in the Warlords period after 1912 and being deserted right up until 1982 after the Jet Li movie's success prompted the government to redevelop it.

All the other sources are mainly folkore as well.

After reading the stories and the pre-WW2 histories I get the idea that when Fan Xudong made his trip out to the Henan temple it was already a kind of 'trip' to a historical site and not an active martial arts centre.

That's my own speculation of course. All makes for nice conversation over food after training.

RF

Agreed.

Shaolin ceased to exist as a viable center around the 1700s.

When people say "shaolin" that covers the whole Henan region surrounding the temple area where people who left Shaolin over the centuries had settled down and taught what they knew, these lay lineages are the only place that preserved what older Shaolin material was like, along with any written material that they copied or took from the place as well.
Modern shaolin post 1920s is reconstructed stuff and once it became wushufied it became fake as well.

[mantis108]

Hi;

thanks for responding.

I looked over some of your posts in the Mantis Quarterly. I have some comments.

In here you said: http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum...0&postcount=14

If you permit me to explain some deeper things about Shaolin, maybe it will have bearing on your thoughts on Duan Da and Chang Quan and Mantis style.

In the original Shaolin methods, not the modern crapola wushu junk, Tai Zu Chang Quan means 'long boxing' as in time wise, meaning movements all connected together to make a 'long' flowing set. As opposed to short drills. And, in fact, Shaolin Chang Quan of tai zu variety is considered a Duan Da, a 'short striking' methods, though it is part of Long Boxing school.
Tong Bi of Han Tong's version was from military drills that come from Sword fighting methods. They also can be 'duan da' short strikes.

Most of the people on the 18 masters list are Ba Fan Men stylists, which again is duan da methods, short strikes. And Ba Fan Men (consisting of Ba Fan Shan and Ba Fan Shou) is a type of Luohan Duan da, as opposed to the a Luohan Chang Da that Shaolin normally shows people. Ba Fan Men is called fanzi Quan nowadays.
It is mentioned in General Qi's book along with and a few styles that are also the styles of the 18 masters (Wen Jia Quan, and others).

In Henan Shaolin, Luohan Duan Da = Fanzi Quan = tong bi (which means 'through the arms', not the 'through the back' character that modern bai yuan tong bei uses). As such, Henan Shaolin Luohan Duan Da is related to Han Tong's Tong Bi, not to Hong Dong city's Chang Quan coiling tong bei (which is a *******ized Tai Zu/Chen Tai Ji combination - Hong Dong Tong Bei comes from a member of the Chen clan that returned to their ancestral city and his Chen TJQ was given another name to hide its source).

Most all Shaolin material can be traced back to their Rou Quan sets and their nei gong sets of Luohan 13 Gong, Chan Yuan Ba Gong, and Lie Hu (6 harmony) Gong.
These are their most ancient material and they are all clearly derived from Tong Bi sword fighting techniques, which come from Taoist sources originally, such as the Qianzai Temple, which had been practicing Wu Ji and Tong Bei 13 Gong for many centuries.

No Offense, Henan Shaolin these days will make claims to anything that people suggest. It's all about tourism and money. Personally, I won't take any of their claims seriously.

Frankly, the Rou Quan and all those so called "gong" are highly of suspect because of dubious theory and methodology. Anybody can make up a long and slow moving form and call it whatever name. So going to claim Shaolin is oldest because it has a "Rou Quan form" that is reminiscent of Yang Style Taiji gone terribly bad isn't going get anyone anywhere.

As for Qianzai Si, well it's not a Daoist temple per se. It's Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism all in one as far as I am aware. Technically, it's a cult hang out space. In Chinese history where there is a cult, there is going to be militia as far as I am concern. It won't be surprising to find martial arts in militia. You can almost be sure that there is possibly more than one kind of martial arts being taught there. To claim there is a unified curriculum in a particular cult militia is not very prudent IMHO. We could suggest there is possibly a more dominant practice of sort but to say it is a well defined training program of any kind simply is wishful thinking.

We have creationism myths in a lot of the martial arts in order to explain the dubious origins of them. Guest what? One of the most popular and enduring of these myths is the one about the White Ape, which is what Tongbiquan is nominated after. The reason is because the myth is about loyalty, filial piety, humanity, and justice. All the virtues and values of what martial artists supposed to represent and uphold. But if you look at modern day Henan Shaolin, non of these actually applies, so there is no real roots of Tongbi in the Henan Shaolin pysche any more than a fragment of imagination period.

I am sorry to be blunt but I am just calling the shot as I see it.

Warm regards

Mantis108