Tai Zu Mantis style

[Royal Dragon]

Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles.

Reply]
How old is Sun Bin? Is it Sung dynasty era right? I seem to remember it is one of the Tai Tzu based shaolin styles.

Louhan, and Cha fist are both styles Zhao Kuang Yin was exposed to. I think Cha Fist was present in pre, and early Sung dynasty military training. Maybe this set originally comes from someone who brought it back to their village after retiring from military service back then. If so, there probably would not have been a form, but a large arsenal of loose techniques. The form would most likely have been created in whatever village the soldier originated from, after he returned home, possibly may generations later.

Or maybe it is a mix of stuff various retired soldiers from different Garrisons brought home from the early Sung's military and is just *Called* Tai Tzu because he was the Emperor at the time?

Another possibility is that this is a more modern choreographed set based in material from the 1700's when Monks went to Shandong?

[Royal Dragon]

One thing that does not make a case for this being an actual Tai Tzu set, it is missing many signature moves of Tai Tzu.

For example, there is no Plow hammer. Although he does do a lot of punches with the lead hand in bow stance, he is holding his rear hand in a more generic chamber position, rather than extend and perform a full plow hammer. Maybe that is an intentional mark to the set? The other performance does the same thing though, so probably not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNO2zOok9pM

There is no General surveys his troops, or Golden Chicken on one leg, which is commonly seen in Tai Tzu sets as well.

Also, no "pounds Mortar", which is seen in some variation in many Tai Tzu sets, or Tai Tzu derived sets (See Chen style).

There is no Phenoix spreads it's winds either., which is also seen in many Tai Tzu, or Tai Tzu derived sets (Again see Chan style).

For comparison, here is the foundational Tai Tzu set. Notice all the common signature moves are in this set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg0AH...elated&search=

Now, you may have Tai Tzu sets that do not have them all, but i have yet to see a Tai Tzu set that does not have at least one...till these sets in question.

Also, the opening does not seem to be from the same family as openings common to Tai Tzu sets either.

[mantid1]

Sal

I would have to agree with Mr. Tunks on this. I dont have the experience he has...but I can see Techniques in this last form that I have seen in various other styles.

I have been down the same journey that you have...but dealing with different styles.

I think it he end you may find a little mantis connection with this style. But, it may just be because it just so happens to share common techniques that are used by numerous other northern styles...with no real connection to mantis other than coincidence.

Another possiblility would be that the person who developed the forms knew some mantis forms. He then developed his own form using the moves out of the forms combined with others to make his form. The problem with this is that if he did not study the mantis style in depth learning theory...techniques...etc then all you have are empty moves that may look like mantis.

Knowing all of the forms of a system and understanding a system are two completely different things IMO.

The Chinese systems really like their forms...and I think this empty combination of techniques happen alot.

Traditional Mantis? Well, I have looked into many schools who teach traditional mantis. Most of them teach traditional forms and some drills or two person sets..but not alot of them get as in depth as I would like. So, I have to ask myself is this traditional or just another empty shell that is closer to what I think the ideals of mantis should be?

One of the few things that two different instructors from two different styles can agree on is how the third instructor from another style is screwing things up.

Have fun with your research...you may not find out exactly what you are looking for but I know you will learn alot on your journey.

I should let you know Im not a mantis guy and probably never will be...just sharing my observations.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Spot on Brendon. Dont know why Sal missed that.

DUHHHH! I didn't "miss" it. Man, do you have to be a jerk for no real reason?

I just wanted other people's opinions about this set.

I said the same thing in PM to RD months ago. As he can attest.

I just want to hear what someone else had to say.

It's a strange set, so generic, agreed.
I wondered what the background on the set is, especially since the teacher says he is 5th generation, TZ Quan goes way back further than that.
I am trying to find out if the 1st generation founder pieced it together from other styles (mostly Shandong styles).
Because they are marketing the sets as being from ancient TZ Chang Quan and it looks like it is not.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles.

Reply]
How old is Sun Bin? Is it Sung dynasty era right? I seem to remember it is one of the Tai Tzu based shaolin styles.

Louhan, and Cha fist are both styles Zhao Kuang Yin was exposed to. I think Cha Fist was present in pre, and early Sung dynasty military training. Maybe this set originally comes from someone who brought it back to their village after retiring from military service back then. If so, there probably would not have been a form, but a large arsenal of loose techniques. The form would most likely have been created in whatever village the soldier originated from, after he returned home, possibly may generations later.

Or maybe it is a mix of stuff various retired soldiers from different Garrisons brought home from the early Sung's military and is just *Called* Tai Tzu because he was the Emperor at the time?

Another possibility is that this is a more modern choreographed set based in material from the 1700's when Monks went to Shandong?

Sun Bin is a relatively modern style, named after Sun Bin in honor, developed by a bodyguard from Shandong. It is not TZ based, it is Tong Bei based.

There is no evidence that Zhao was exposed to Cha Quan, he never went to Shandong were Cha was practiced, and I don't think there were that many Moslems in the military during Zhao's time when he was a soldier.
Most of Cha Quan is typical long fist found in the Shandong area.
Anyways it was not called Cha Quan during his time period, it was called Jia Zhi (Frame) Boxing, and it was much different then.
If he came across any Moslem martial artists practicing Jia Zhi, they would have to be from Western China, which Jia Zhi was practiced.
It seems very doubtful.

The hooked hand thing that is done mostly in Cha Quan which people point to show that there must have been a connection to TZ Quan is also commonly done the same way in Shaolin Rou Quan 108 set, Shanxi sets, Sichuan sets,and other styles from the regions nearby each other in that area, where Zhao did go to when before he was a soldier and was wondering about picking up various martial arts techniques.

As I said a million times, soldiers who retired during the early Song dynasty mostly used what all soldiers learned Sword techniques transposed to the empty hand, which is in essence just Tong Bei. There are military manuals that exist from the Song period, mostly they talk about the soldiers weapons training and so on.
Empty hands was not emphasized.

Luohan was fairly common in the Henan region, and was pretty primitive back then.

What these video sets actually are will depend on what the 1st generation founder was doing.

I was interested in seeing if anyone recognized these sets or at least some sequences of their movements from something Mantis or something else.
Just asking, no theories up my sleeve or research into "the one true original style".

JUST HAD A D AMN QUESTION AND WANTED SOME EDUCATED PEOPLE'S OPINION< but that seems to cause some people to get all upset for some weird reason.
(not meaning you, RD, of course, but you know who)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I said the same thing in PM to RD months ago. As he can attest.

Reply]
Yes I'll testify to that, and he also pointed out the missing signature moves I mentioned above (although some are my own additions to list list of of missing moves).

My thought is these forms are a survey of common military techniques from the early, and pre Sung dynasty, all strung together in one long form, and thus named Tai Tzu because of the period they come from, and not any actual tie to Zhao Kuang Yin.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal,

I can see one kick (repeated) and one hooking hand that are very consistent with TLQ. Importantly though, both movements are also common to Cha, Hua, Luohan, Sunbin and many other boxing styles. There are also about half a dozen other techniques that are played identically to some families of Tanglang but they are even more generic, appearing in nearly all northern systems. In fact, there is almost no technique or combination in this taolu that isn't seen in multiple other systems. Having said that, maybe there is a close relationship, but if so, it would certainly not be exclusively with TLQ.

BT

Thanks, was of the same opinion, just wanted someone else's opinion, just in case someone recognized the movements from something set they knew.
It is a very generic set, so whoever the 1st generation founder was 100 years ago or so, he developed it from basic long fist.

What is not cool is that it is being marketed as "Shaolin" Tai Tzu Chang Quan, and it might only remotely be so, just because it is Long Fist, which someone then says is automatically Tai ZU Chang Quan, taaa da!
Did the founder 100 years ago come from a Shaolin lineage? Who knows.
Around 1735-1765 a lot of former Shaolin monks left and moved to Shandong area, where they taught various Shaolin material. The Fan family bodyguard company, open since the 1700s were using the Hong Quan that they learned from these Monks.
The great Wang Zu Ping also learned Shaolin Long Fist from students of these ex-monks.
Some of these monks taught Jingang Quan, some Hong Quan, some Luohan Quan, some Black Tiger, and other stuff that influenced various long fist schools from Shandong, which already had their Cha Quan, Hua Quan, N Mantis, and other stuff that Shandong was already famous for.
These, especially Cha Quan and Hua Quan, probably mixed with the imported Shaolin material over time. I think that is what this "Shaolin TZ Chang Quan" stuff is most likely.

The Green Dragon school (yucch!) has a set of 3 "TZ Long Fist" that they sell, and it is clearly Southern CLF stuff and he even admits that it was Southern Five Animals sets, but they marketed it as TZ Chang Quan, just because it was Long Fist material. Totally deceptive way of selling it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Could Tai Tzu hongquan be considered any Shandong longfist mixed Tai Tzu from Shaolin?

You're better off going back to the Hong Quan thread in the Shaolin area, for that question.

Since no Mantis people recognize anything in these 2 sets, then this thread is pretty much over with.

Thanks, BT for giving your opinion, much appreciated.

[B.Tunks]

Sal,

No worries. Out of interest, I think there was slightly more in common with TLQ in the first clip (but still nothing exclusive).

BT

[Sal Canzonieri]

I found some information on the 'net pertaining to Tai Tzu and Northern Mantis:

Taiji Praying Mantis Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai (CE 1900 - 1991).

Grandmaster Chiu was born in Yi County, Shandong province, China. The Abbot of a Buddhist Temple in the near mountain took him in as a young disciple when he was about 8 years old. There were 2 monks, who taught him Taizu Men (Grand Emperor division), which is a famous northern style martial art. He practiced random techniques with a rudimentary wooden dummy during his training. These techniques were not strung together in a set routine. This period of training that lasted about 10 years left a profound impression on Grandmaster Chiu. After the monk teachers passed away, he returned to his hometown and then move to Yantai County where he furthered his martial arts training with 2 Taiji Praying Mantis masters. Grandmaster Chiu became proficient in both Taizu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

In early 1940s, he relocated to Macao, where he joined a brotherhood with 12 other people in a special ceremony. One of his 12 sworn brothers was Sifu Chu Chun Man, who was a Wing Chun (Forever Spring) style master. It is believed that Abbot Gi Chin used to teach a fluid, agile and short ranged style called the Huaquan (flower fist) at the Forever Spring Hall in the Fujian Shaolin temple; hence, the name Wing Chun to commemorate the teaching. Sifu Chu was teaching this style at his Kwoon (training hall), which also had a Wooden Dummy. Having the opportunity to exchange martial knowledge with Sifu Chu, Grandmaster Chiu combined the Taizu Men and Taiji Praying Mantis Techniques to create the TJPM Wooden Dummy form that was inspired by his sworn brother’s Kung Fu. The form consists of 108 moves, which signifies cosmic balance in Chinese Buddhism as well as the history connection to the Shaolin tradition. Grandmaster Chiu named the form “Shaolin Buddhist Wooden Dummy form” to commemorate his first masters, who were Buddhist monks. Through the Wing Chun inspiration, TJPM stylists now enjoy this unique legacy of a Grandmaster.

. . .

Since Taizu Men techniques are major component of the form. Individual moves can be extracted from the form and practice with the short strikes method of Taizu Men otherwise known as Taizu Duanda.

[mantis108]

Hi Sal,

It looks like you have found my article written for the lunach of Wooden Dummy book in the west. It's not meant to be the definitive work on this interesting aspect of CCK TCPM. New information and perspective have emerged since then. So I am in the process of rewriting that pieces and possibly length it into a book.

Regarding Taizu Duanda, we understand that there are Taizu Changquan in the Shangdong area. Taizu Changquan does have form(s). In one of my conversations with GM Chiu, he said that he trained Sau Fa/Shou Fa that is from the Taizu Men Kung Fu when he was in the temple. BTW, we have confirmed that there is indeed the said temple on the said mountain in exsitent. We have not confirmed whether there was a tangible martial tradition or activity at the temple at this point. Further investigation is needed. As much of GM Chiu's martial background and career have been confirmed through various sources, we are confident that he is truthful in all of his studies. So personally, we have no reason to doubt that he practiced Taizu Men Kung Fu as he said it. Now, we can not confirm whether this Taizu Men Kung Fu has anything to do with Taizu Changquan other than they shared the name of the style. Given that it is passed down on to our generation as named Taizu Duanda, which indicate that it might very well be different from Changquan, I would just leave it as that until new evidence suggests otherwise.

As far as Taizu Duanda in CCK TCPM goes, there is no physical relationship between it and Mantis before GM Chiu took up both arts. It can not be used to support Taizu Men Kung Fu as one of Mantis' founding styles from that end IMHO.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

thanks 108!
Maybe that is the style I was thinking of that I had read about that was mixing tai zu and mantis.

Anyways, I want to present this information, I just spend the last few hours translating this very carefully.

This is the Shaolin version of the 18 masters names and skills. Two of the surviving books ("Records of Shao Lin Monastery" and "Records about Shao Lin Boxing") that escaped the burning of Shaolin in 1928, mentioned a list of names of 18 skills and who they came from. They say that in the year 961, head martial art monk Fu Ju (Fu is a surname that means: blessing and Ju means to reside, most likely his honorary name). Under the auspices of Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin, Fu Ju called a meeting of masters 3 times for a span of 3 years each to develop standardized sets for martial monks to pass, because false monks were claiming that they were from Shaolin, so they wanted to devise a way to that someone would have to prove that they graduated from Shaolin (you could get good money as a body guard doing so). So, they started with Zhao's Long Fist material and built a series of standardized sets that they assembled into a book.

Fine you Mantis people all know that by now, thanks to Ilya Profatilov and others.

It seems to me that the person in the 1790s that hand copied these Shaolin manuals and wrote the "Luohan exercising merit short strike illustrated manuscript" ( 罗汉行功短打; Luóhàn Xínggōng Duǎn Dǎ), made mistakes in coping the characters and also people have mistranslated the characters from his version.

Okay, well here is the Shaolin version of the list, you can see that the names are sometimes different, in a different order (Wang Lang is not last) and the skills are explained differently as well or more clearer (attached also is the Chinese characters from text):

1. Tai Zu’s chang quan qi shou (long fist rising hands)

2. Han Tong’s tong bi wei you (through arm serves excellently)

3. Zheng En’s chan feng you miao (binding seal especially clever)

4. Wen Tian’s duan quan geng ji (short fist more unusual)

5. Ma Jie‘s duan da zui jia (close strikes best [most fine])

6. Kong Heng‘s hou quan qie sheng (monkey fist also flourishes)

7. Huang Hu's kao shen nan jin (leaning body difficult to approach)

8. Jin Sheng's mian zhang ji fei (face palm swiftly flys)

9. Jin Xiang's ke-zi tong quan (knocking through fist)

10. Liu Xing's gou lou cai shou (hook pulling/embracing picking hand)

11. Tan Fang's gun lie guan er (rolling thunder piercing ears)

12. Yan Qing's nian na yue bu (sticky hold leaps not)

13. Lin Chong’s yuan yang jiao – ‘mandarin duck’ kicks

14. Meng Huo's qi shi lian zhang (seven forces/postures linking palms)

15. Cui Lian's wo guo pao chui (nest confining cannon hammers)

16. Yang Gun's kun shou lu zhi ru (tying hand capture vertically enters)

17. Wang Lang’s tang lang ke di (praying mantis subdues enemy)

18. Gao Huai De's shuai liu ying beng (throwing grab hard collapse)


------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can compare that list to that which was in Ilya's site:

1. In the beginning there was "Long-range Boxing" (Chang Quan) style of emperor Tai Zu.
2. "Through the Back" (Tongbei) boxing of Master Han Tong's considered parental.
3. Hand technique "Rap Around and Seal" (Chan Feng) of Master Zhang En is especially profound.
4. "Close-range Strikes" (Duanda) boxing of Master Ma Ji is the most remarkable.
5. It is impossible to come close to Master Huang You who knows the "Close Range Hand Techniques" (Kao Shou).
6. The technique "Blocking Hands and Following Trough Fist" (Keshou Tongquan) of Master Jin Xiang;.
7.The hand techniques of "Hooking, Scooping and Grabbing Hands" (Gou Lou Cai Shou) of Master Liu Xing.
8.The "Methods of Sticking, Grabbing, and Falling" (Zhanna Diefa) of Master Yan Qing.
9. The "Short Boxing"(Duan Quan) of Master Wen Yuan is the most extraordinary.
10. The style "Monkey Boxing" (Hou Quan) of Master Sun Heng is also flourishing.
11.The "Cotton Fist"(Mien Quan) techniques of Master Mien Shen is lightning fast.
12. The "Throwing-Grabbing and Hard Crashing" (Shuailue Yingbeng) techniques by Master Huai De.
13.The technique of "Ducking, Leaking and Passing through the Ears" (Gun lou guan er) of Master Tan Fang.
14. The strongest leg kicking technique is "Mandarin ducks kick " (Yuanyang Jiao) of Master Lin Chong.
15.The "Seven Postures of Continuous Fist Strikes" (Qishi Lianquan) techniques by Master Meng Su.
16. "Hand Binding and Grabbing" (Kunlu Zhenru) techniques of Master Yang Gun attack instantly.
17. The techniques of "Explosive Strikes into the Hollow Parts of the Body" (Woli Paochui) by Master Cui Lian.
18. “Praying Mantis (Tanglang) boxing of Master Wang Lang absorbed and equalized all previous techniques.

And compare to the list often seen in the HK schools:

Compare to Mantis style poem:

1. the long fist technique of Tai-Cho
2. Followed by the Tung Pi style of Han Tung
3. Still better with the twisting locking techniques of Tzen Un
4. The short fist technique of Un Yian is remarkable
5. The Short range striking technique of Ma Chi is extraordinare
6. The monkey style of Sun Tan is also popular
7. The body leaning techniques of Wang Tien is hard to get near
8. The swift flying face palm techniques of Mian She
9. The Knocking hands technique of Chin Siang can pass through fist
10. The rigid collapsing throwing strokes of Wai Tek
11. The Hook, Embrace, Plucking technique of Liu Sing
12. The rolling sneaking technique of Tain Fang pierce the ear
13. The Grabbing throwing techniques of Ian Ching
14. The Mandarin Duck Kick of Lin Chung is great
15. The seven continuous fist techniques of Meng Sen
16. The belly cutting punch technique of Chun Lian
17. The pole plucking technique of Yang Kun pierce straight in
18. The Praying Mantis technique of Wang Lang covers all

[Royal Dragon]

Question, could Tai Tzu Chang Chuan be considered everything these 18 Masters developed at Shaolin during thier time there?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question, could Tai Tzu Chang Chuan be considered everything these 18 Masters developed at Shaolin during thier time there?

No, because they made subdivisions that were groupings of sets and they named each one differently.

TZ was the base that they started from, by virtue of the fact that there was already a style named this, and by adding in lots of outside elements it becomes a different style, that what logically a style is.

But, it is 'possible' that some lineages doing these sets just called them Tai Zu Chang Quan, to mean Ancestoral Long Fist in general.

That's why there are so many different styles today called Tai Zu Quan, half the time they are meaning only that it is the Ancestoral sets from their founder. Not that they trace their sets back to Zhao Kuang Yin himself.

It's a mixed up mess once you get outside of the Shaolin original sets, so much evolution and de-evolution happened from 961 AD to now.

[Royal Dragon]

Agreed. At least Shaolin has documentation.

As for the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, I was referring to the system all 18 Masters developed as Tai Tzu meaning Ancestral, not related to Zhao Kunag Yin.

The story says "Initiated by Zhao Kuang Yin", so I was thinking that Tai Tzu may be relating to both the entire 18 masters system (that Zhao Kuang Yin got started), and also Zhao Kuang Yin's personal material specifically.