Novice Buddhism and Daoism Questions

[couch]

I have some serious questions that maybe everyone here who has experience with Buddhism and Daoism can answer.

A little background:
Firstly, the squabbles at the Wing Chun forum are getting to be too much at times so I though this part of the forum would be refreshing!

I'm 27 years old, teach a small ground of Wing Chun people and have just recently got myself set up as a Chinese Medicine practitioner.

My upbringing was in a good home with great parents, however throughout my early teenage years, I struggled with being an atheist, agnostic, etc and trying to come to terms with the fact that my upbringing had no formal religious study. I am also adopted and have had the chance a few years ago to meet my birth-parents and discover a little about my heritage.

At age 14, I saw a white-haired guy beating up ninjas on a bridge and then joined the (infamous) Temple Kung-Fu. I was there 8-9 years and left right before it became a little defunct. Anyways, because I struggled with not knowing anything about religion or my "options" and the fact that I was studying (what I thought was) Chinese Kung-Fu - I found myself reading Dao Te Ching, Leih-Tzu and Chuang-Tzu. I started to collect figurines and incense supplies, etc. But I was still confused and am to this day!

Of course as you change martial arts (staying within the Chinese realm) you encounter Buddhism and all sorts of stuff. Then throughout my schooling of Chinese Medicine I encoutered many people that were into Indian traditions such as Buddhism and the Maha Mantra, etc.

A part of me has always been an all-or-nothing person and not really flexible. Chinese Medicine has really helped me with this, however now more than ever I find myself revisiting Buddhism and Daoism.

I guess I am curious about how they go hand-in-hand. As I read the Tao Te Ching, it talks about how rituals are nonsense, yet some Buddhist sects are very regimented in mantras and other things such as bowing.

And while in Buddhism you are not supposed to cling to anything (If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha) - why is there this bowing to an alter, etc? Is it none other than paying respects?

Unfortunately, maybe I'm getting all caught up on the exterior stuff of these philosophies - but maybe somebody can help me go in the right direction.

I also apologize for any delay in my responses.

Thank you,
Kenton Sefcik

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Kenton,

We live in a world of form/structure. Form serves a purpose. As long as we use form to serve us we benefit, when we cling to form we serve it.

It is not that form is non-sense; it is that attachment to form creates obstructed perception which limits our experience and understanding.

Rituals are not necessary; however they are beneficial in providing structure to learning. Form/Rituals/Structure is a means used to transcend form. The transcendence of form is not the act of avoiding form, it is the attitude of “not clinging” to form. We use form to our benefit as a conscious choice rather than become slaves to form which works to our detriment.

As I said, we let form serve us, but avoid serving, becoming a slave to form.

Bowing to altars etc. is a form or structure used to assist us in sublimating the ego. Bowing fosters humility. Arrogance, the opposite of humility is when we have a sense of superior self importance over others. This attitude reinforces the illusion of an ego. This is clinging to the ego which creates obstructed perception.

Our ego is an arbitrary construct, a form or structure, used by the mind to interact with the world. It is an illusion and essentially non-existent. When we cling to self-importance we are serving the form, the ego. However, clinging to humility is also serving the ego, it is false humility. True humility is understanding that all beings are equal according to their essence even if they are not apparently equal in terms of arbitrary social structures.

In the end it is not the attitude we use, but clinging to an attitude/view/perspective that creates the detrimental effect of obstructed perception.

Why is clinging detrimental? Clinging/Attachment creates confusion in our mind and this causes mis-perception, false/erroneous views. When we misperceive phenomena/events we react to an illusion and we serve the illusion, the form. When we serve illusion we become slaves to phenomena rather than live free.

Unobstructed perception allows us to react to phenomena according to what is actually occurring and not according to false or erroneous perceptions.

[mantis108]

Excellent reply by Scott. I think it is beneficial to read up on what he has shared on these forums if you are serious about searching for direction in spiritual awakening.

I believe it's important to discern the differences between religion and spirituality. Often we sought spirituality but we are either drawn to or pushed to religion during the quest of personal growth. Religion provides faith based structure for epochal transformation and it's a very powerful tool. The same job can be done by philosophical approach to realize that we are after all spiritual beings. Transcendental reality that which we sometime lable as God/Dao/Nirvana/Truth is what it IS. IT doesn't change because of discipline that or labelling we decided on taking up (yes those are our choices only). As long as you are willing to exercise your own free will on personal growth spiritually, take the red pill so to speak, it's all good.


Mantis108

[couch]

Thank you Scott & Mantis108.

What is the relationship between Buddhism and Daoism, if there is one?

Mantis108 (et al), I guess I'm just afraid of getting deep into something and it not working for me. Maybe it's commitment thing regarding religion or spirituality. So the question is: how do you approach something with free will, yet being able to learn and take it on?

Thanks for the your time. I will definitely search out some of Scott's posts.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[mantis108]

Mantis108 (et al), I guess I'm just afraid of getting deep into something and it not working for me. Maybe it's commitment thing regarding religion or spirituality. So the question is: how do you approach something with free will, yet being able to learn and take it on?

Can you break or hurt something that is essentially undistroyable or unbreakable? Can such a "thing" even exist? What if someone were to tell you that by giving your self/ego up you will realize that "you" are this thing? If you are this thing why would "you" be afraid? (Hinduism 101)

If you don't mind my saying so, when you are not free from your self/ego, essentially you have no free will. You might "think" or believe that you have free will but being attached to self/ego, how can you justify being "free"?

Commitment is behavioral and psychological in nature. It is not beneficial to discuss that in a philosophical manner where spiritual growth is concern. It would seem that you are looking for a way out before you even beginning to try. In that case no one can help you IMHO. There is no free lunch anywhich way we look at it, my friend. FWIW, I have similar issues and concern about spiritual growth once upon a time. But if you are serious and ready about it, your spiritual guide(s) will appear in the most unimaginable manner. So my advice is be brave and have faith. As my Sufi mentor told me, "Truth reveals itself when IT "sees" that you are ready. You must realize that It's not up to you."

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[NJM]

A part of me has always been an all-or-nothing person and not really flexible. Chinese Medicine has really helped me with this, however now more than ever I find myself revisiting Buddhism and Daoism.

I guess I am curious about how they go hand-in-hand. As I read the Tao Te Ching, it talks about how rituals are nonsense, yet some Buddhist sects are very regimented in mantras and other things such as bowing.

And while in Buddhism you are not supposed to cling to anything (If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha) - why is there this bowing to an alter, etc? Is it none other than paying respects?

Thank you,
Kenton Sefcik

Well, let's first look at some sects of Religious Daoism. Have you ever heard of a few fellows called the Eight Immortals? I'll need to know your reply before I continue.


As for ritual; ritual is stagnant behavior; if your Buddhist "ritual" is not stagnant, repeditive behavior, it is not a ritual in the sense that the Daodejing means. Ritual is like a stagnant loop; the Dao is unchanging, but formed of continuity. It changes not in its composition, but its arrangement. Thus, it does not change but for its "shape" if you will. I have a philosophy about it called the Patterned Absence.

To close, I would like to know what translation of the Daodejing you are using.

[couch]

Mantis108,

This helps. Honestly, it has been tough being away from the teachers and classmates. After 3 years of spiritual growth myself (Chinese Medicine school wouldn't be the way it is without it), it was easy to be around people that challenged me and taught me. Then I left it all behind (literally - I moved out of the province!) and found myself without these guides and community.

Unfortunately, I live in the sticks somewhat and I guess I find it 'hard' that if I wanted to be part of any specific community, I'd have to stick to one as per travel time and commitment, etc. I'm used to being an "information gatherer" from many disciplines, however I'm seriously considering to do what you suggest and commit to something.

I do really enjoy the ideas presented in Daoism, however it seems that here in the Western world Buddhism is more accessible. I partly understand the role of the ego and there are many reasons in my mind that could hold me back from experiencing something greater.

NJM,

I know briefly about the 8 Immortals, but my education in Daoism is mostly self-taught and has to do with the Tao Te Ching, Chuang-Tzu and Lieh-Tzu (which is by far the toughest read). My translation is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Ching-25th.../dp/0679776192

Thank you all,
Kenton Sefcik

[BaguaGoblin]

A part of me has always been an all-or-nothing person and not really flexible. Chinese Medicine has really helped me with this, however now more than ever I find myself revisiting Buddhism and Daoism.

I guess I am curious about how they go hand-in-hand. As I read the Tao Te Ching, it talks about how rituals are nonsense, yet some Buddhist sects are very regimented in mantras and other things such as bowing.

And while in Buddhism you are not supposed to cling to anything (If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha) - why is there this bowing to an alter, etc? Is it none other than paying respects?

Unfortunately, maybe I'm getting all caught up on the exterior stuff of these philosophies - but maybe somebody can help me go in the right direction.

I've always thought things I see in Zen, Buddhism, or Taoism practices as being very Practical. Why do all of these tedious things like, make sure your slippers are taken off in the right order and placed in a very specific way? They have all these daily rituals that force them to pay attention to what they are doing throughout the day. Instead of wandering around day dreaming or thinking about laundry, they are focused on the moment. The more ritual you add to your kung fu training, the more you have to stay aware of what you are doing, and be in the moment.

I see these practices more as training than religion.

Walking into class, have to be ready to bow to the flag and then locate Sifu and bow to him...oh he's hiding around the corner, did he do that intentionally? Probably... Probably seeing who's paying attention... now have to see who's here and line up in proper order....there's Joe, he's higher rank so I have to move over....are we spaced right?... great, now we can start.

All that keeps our mind in class. It's not for no reason. Most of these practices have multiple purposes.

Buddha wants your respect because he knows then you will pay full attention to what he is teaching you, which is why you are there with him. Same with a great Shifu. They are beyond wanting respect. They are there to teach you.

[NJM]

NJM,

I know briefly about the 8 Immortals, but my education in Daoism is mostly self-taught and has to do with the Tao Te Ching, Chuang-Tzu and Lieh-Tzu (which is by far the toughest read). My translation is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Ching-25th.../dp/0679776192

Thank you all,
Kenton Sefcik

I don't really like that translation. Too much it's-asian-so-we-have-to-translate-it-as-mystical-ness, and not enough substance. I read through a few pages of it in a bookstore once.

As for the 8-Immortals, I view them as a corruption of Daoism.

[mantis108]

Hi Couch and All,

There are basically 3 kinds of Daoism:

1) Philosophical Daoism as in study of Lao Zi (Dao De Jing), Zhuang Zi (Hua Nan Jing) and Lie Zi (Qing Xu Jing). These three works are considered central to the study of philosophical Daosim. Contrary to common believe Lao Zi isn't written by Lao Zi (the historic person). Rather it's a collection of thoughts and edited by follows of Lao Zi. Phliosophical Daoism is influenced by Ming Jia, which roughly translated as School of Names and sometimes translated as Sophist school). The "counter part" philosophical school in Chinese tradition is Confucian.

2) Religious Daoism is often about rituals and rites especially concerning the state. There are spiritual practices in Religious Daoism as well. The counter part of Religious Daoism is Budhism. We can find 3 main sects of Religious Daoism - Zheng Yi (ritual and rites oriented), Mao Shan (shamanistic), Quan Zhen (meditation and philosophical study).

3) Shamanistic Daoism is grass root base. It is largely folk practices sometimes boarderline occult/magic/black magic. It is opportunistic in nature sometimes they absorb other religions' deity and practices. One of the bigger sect of this is the Thunder Sect, which has a pantheon that's slightly different from the Religious Daoism.

It is also of note that both philosophical and religious Daoism study the Yijing (classic of change) as well but they are more concern with the applications (ie internal alchemy) more so then working with it academically (ie writing commentary about it like the Confucian).

That's Daoism in a nut shell.

Mantis108

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Kenton,

The relationship between Taoism and Buddhism is long and complicated. There are many flavors of each and in China they borrowed a great deal from each other. The oldest extant text on Tao is called Nei Yeh (Inner Training). This text predates the earliest extant text of Tao Te Ching by about 100-300 years in its written form and is thought to go back perhaps 500-1,000 years as an oral tradition. This makes it contemporary to or predating Buddha. Even this text has some elements that are similar to Buddhism. This is because they each communicate Universal principles.

If we each observe the same elephant we will see essentially the same object although the manner in which we communicate the experience/perception will vary according to our awareness, temperament, education level, ability to communicate and the media we use. For example, if you were a painter and I a poet, we would communicate our experience of an elephant each according to our method. A painter might paint the experience in a realistic manner, an impressionist manner or in an abstract manner, etc. Each creative expression offers a similar, yet different, perspective of an elephant. The essence of the elephant remains the same while the illustration of it varies accordingly to the individual representing the experience. The same thing occurs with essential reality, Tao.

All major religions contain elements of the same essential principles communicated according to the culture at the time of their inception. There are outer teachings so to speak, these are for the masses who require morals and rituals to structure and guide their thoughts and behaviors from a social context, then there are inner or deeper teachings that guide the individual to direct perception of the Ultimate or Essential reality, Tao. These teachings are all meant to lead the individual to the same essential reality. The methods are similar yet also different according to the tradition. Each method has the same purpose; they are designed to help the individual transcend the limitation of ego oriented perception in order to allow the individual to DIRECTLY perceive, firsthand and for themselves the essential reality, Tao. The teachings are similar because they all interpret or communicate identical Truth, Tao. They are different because of the culture, historical era of the authors and the temperament and communicative ability of the authors. We will all perceive the same event slightly differently, so the manner in which Tao is communicated will vary accordingly, yet always reflect similar themes.

There is no necessity for one to adhere to ritual and strict doctrinal teachings in order to realize spiritual truths, although many adhere to ritual and doctrine for personal purposes. Many individuals get caught up in ritual and doctrine believing that performance of ritual and adherence to doctrine reflect spiritual advancement. These people serve the ritual and doctrine and do not use the ritual and doctrine to serve them. Hui-Neng, the sixth patriarch of Ch’an cautioned adherents to not let the sutra turn you, but to turn the sutra. This means we should practice the teachings of the sutras in our mind and not just perform outward behaviors or blindly adhere to principles/doctrine we don’t understand.

There are numerous writings available to pursue your interest in Tao and Buddhism. The best primers I believe are Alan Watts’ “Tao, The Watercourse Way, and, “The Way of Zen”. These are very simply written, yet communicate the essential principles of these philosophies. D.T. Suzuki has written many definitive modern works on Zen while Thomas Cleary has interpreted into English many Zen and Taoist writings. If you read too much of Thomas Cleary’s translations however it can become confusing. It would be like reading about all the different denominations of Christianity in order to determine which one was the Right interpretation. I would avoid getting caught up in the minutia and try to learn and apply the basic principles/tenets. These “essential principles” have nearly universal application and reflect the essence of Tao.

There is no reason to not study and apply the principles of both Tao and Buddhism if you have an interest in both. There are no essential principles that conflict. The conflicts that may arise have to do with the window dressing of specific schools of Tao and Buddhism, the ritual and doctrine and are not a representation of the essential principles of each. They are compatible schools of thought according to their essential principles.

[Scott R. Brown]

Excellent reply by Scott. I think it is beneficial to read up on what he has shared on these forums if you are serious about searching for direction in spiritual awakening.

Mantis108

Hi Mantis108,

Thank you for the compliment.

[mantis108]

Hi Scott,

You are most welcome, my friend. I am only giving credit where credit is due.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

[NJM]

Hi Scott,

You are most welcome, my friend. I am only giving credit where credit is due.

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

Mantis, what is your perspective on the eight immortals?

[mantis108]

Hi NJM,

The 8 immortals are colourful anecdotes. Other than that, it is of not much value at least in my interest of personal development and spiritual growth.

Hope that answer your question.

Warm regards

Mantis108